There's no nicer way to say this but...

[DeistPaladin]

I applaud this brave move.
It was time someone spoke the millenia old truth.

Fuck you and your child-molesting Muhammad too.

Here's a new rule, a religion that was started by a child-molester doesn't get to dictate sexual morality to anyone. Sound fair to you?

[Faith No More]

Hmm...DP, you seem aggravated at these bigots more than you usually are.

EDIT: Is everything cool?

[8BitAtheist]

FUCK NORTH CAROLINA

[DeistPaladin]

Hmm...DP, you seem aggravated at these bigots more than you usually are.

EDIT: Is everything cool?

A fair question and I admit flying off the handle just now. I like to keep a cool head since we're preaching "reason" and all (we should practice what we preach) but sometimes I just can't contain my frustration and anger against an institution that should be long dead but continues to spread its misery.

I regret and apologize for the personal insults just now (but not for calling Muhammad a child molester, which he is, or for calling Christian beliefs "goofy" which they are).

I admire authors like Sam Harris and YouTube posters like Philhellenes who maintain such a cool demeanor even when speaking out against the insanity of Islamo-Christian beliefs. I really want to be more like them but sometimes the rage is hard to contain. We're splitting the atom, we're able to travel to the moon and back, we've discovered so much of how we came to be as a species, why the fuck isn't this Iron Age religion dead yet? Or at least why the fuck hasn't our political discourse gotten to the level where Bachmann and Perry are selling pencils on the street corner instead of running for the highest office in the land (old news, I know, but they were serious contenders at once point).

And this issue in particular is a personal one for me. Thankfully, my soul mate has turned out to be someone who has a dissimilar anatomy feature at the groin but that's only because this is the relationship that panned out, not the one before her.

[Faith No More]

You don't have to defend yourself to me. I was just checking to see if maybe something else was bothering you.

I tend to avoid conversations about this stuff, because I would eventually say the same things you did. It's frustrating that we still have to deal with this kind of prejudice.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Okay, you are now never allowed to marry the person you love. That should be fine, right? No. It's ludicrous. People in love want to be married.

,
That is not what I said. But I said that love can exist without marriage. Marriage is just a social and economical aspect of legitimizing the relationship between two people. Certainly, how legitimate the relationship between two people of the same sex is debatable. They certainly receive not much public acceptance.
People in love can live without marriage. Then why "get married"?
These all have their specific purposes, and none are even remotely related to love.
None, whatsoever.

I worry about how your kids will be raised.

As Turkish nationalists, of course.

What if a woman wants a child, but doesn't want a husband? And by the way, your sexism upsets me. Fuck you. I don't need a husband because I'm weak. I don't need a husband at all.

Well, I hope she can bear the burden of raising a child alone.
Not really my concern how people choose to handle their illegitimate children. I am only concerned with preventing the birth of illegitimate children, as their parents are people who willingly or unwillingly defy social order and the concept of the traditional family.
If you don't need a husband, be my guest. I need a wife.

So, you're against basic human rights. Gotcha.

Since when is granting people who do not deserve the privilage, not the right, to marriage is going against the human rights convention?
This is bullshit. Basic human rights crap. Have we denied gays food, shelter, protection of law or public health insurance? Don't they share the same rights as we do?
They do. So I demand only respect from their part.

Homosexuals want to marry for the same reasons everyone else wants to get married. Next you'll be telling me the Jews are evil and that's why it's okay to starve them to death.

Well, true there. They want public acceptance, that's it. They want their condition to be "normalized" and publicized the way a normal relationship is. Marriage, here is an important step.

The state is responsible for it's pocketbook. Have no illusions, government has not cared for the good of the people in a long time. Additionally, homosexuality is normal. We see it often in nature. The politicians are just trying to save their own asses so they can get re-elected.

Well, homosexuality is "natural", true. But normal? No. Are children with down syndrome normal? Absolutely not. Neither are homosexuals.
I could tell you this, friend, if there was no society at all, and no government that is formed from this society, marriage would not exist. Marriage is a sanctimony of the relationship of two people in public eyes, while giving them the same sanctity in the eyes of the state.
This is why you are able to share property legally, these have been defined in laws since ancient times. Since ancient times, marriage has been a social/governmental institution.

Everything effects society in some way. So, Mehmet, unless you are against everything, come up with actual reasons for your bigotry.

It depends on how it will affect society. I'm sure that your society will not benefit from the legalisation of gay marriage. Really, if anything, it will probably serve to do the exact opposite.
Well, you do what you want to do over there. Here, things will never run that way, thankfully.

I don't oppose it, because it has nothing to do with me. Marriages can make such an awful mess should it go wrong, legal matters and all. Not to mention the expense. I don't quite like the idea of marriage.

If one would ask a person like you, nothing has anything to do with you.
Marriages make such an awful mess these days, true. This is because everyone seems to have forgotten about what marriage was truly about. Now it's an overtly romanticized concept of "love for life". Why really get married for love? Can't you love without getting married? You sure can.

Yeah, you're a little behind. Don't worry, you'll catch up eventually. You need to keep up with the times and be more tolerant.

From my point of view, we're quite ahead, actually. Not from your viewpoint though, I think that western society eventually regresses backwards. The age of losing one's virginity decreases, teen pregnancies on rise, homosexuality is becoming "normal" like in some ancient and medieval societies...You're like going backwards...You just don't understand it.
At the end, we'll be standing, while you've already crumbled to dust.

[Rayaan]

DP, do you have any sources to support that Muhammad was a child-molester?

According to my knowledge, the child, Aisha (although it is disputed amongst scholars about her exact age during the time of marriage), was believed to be past her puberty and she was ready to be married and willing to be married. That's the most important thing. Also, Aisha's parents were happy with their daughter being married to Muhammad. And it was a common practice for women to get married at an early age during those times.

I mean, there is no indication that Muhammad raped his wife nor even hurt in any way. On the contrary, the two of them lived happily with each other, and they helped each other (as a normal couple would).

If you want to know more, I discussed this topic in more detail in this thread.

[Annik]

That is not what I said. But I said that love can exist without marriage. Marriage is just a social and economical aspect of legitimizing the relationship between two people. Certainly, how legitimate the relationship between two people of the same sex is debatable. They certainly receive not much public acceptance.
People in love can live without marriage. Then why "get married"?
These all have their specific purposes, and none are even remotely related to love.
None, whatsoever.

It's not anyone's place but they couple's to determine how legitimate their relationship is. Your view of marriage is very cold. I'd like to get married because of my own feelings for another person. I don't care if we'd never jointly own anything because that's not why people get married. People get married so that they can be married. People can also live without chocolate or beer, but they doesn't mean people don't buy them. Yes, love exists outside marriage, but people in love usually want to be married.

As Turkish nationalists, of course.

Then I especially fear for your children. Teach them a little challenge for authority if only to make sure they don't become victims of it. This should not be taken in context of religion or politics, but any people can become oppressed and they need to have the tools to stick up for themselves.

Well, I hope she can bear the burden of raising a child alone.
Not really my concern how people choose to handle their illegitimate children. I am only concerned with preventing the birth of illegitimate children, as their parents are people who willingly or unwillingly defy social order and the concept of the traditional family.
If you don't need a husband, be my guest. I need a wife.

I don't think of children as a burden, but a joy. And I'm sure they are legitimately children and not some robot (I don't like that turn for children not born of a marriage). Then are you are pro-choice and pro-birth control? (<- I don't mean this offensively or rhetorically, I am just curious)

Since when is granting people who do not deserve the privilage, not the right, to marriage is going against the human rights convention?
This is bullshit. Basic human rights crap. Have we denied gays food, shelter, protection of law or public health insurance? Don't they share the same rights as we do?
They do. So I demand only respect from their part.

These are your fellow humans, you're not empathizing with them. Put yourself in their shoes. If you weren't allowed to marry the person you loved most in the world and additionally, you were told that your love wasn't legitimate, don't you think you'd be a little upset. Marriage has been around longer than most societies and I'd considered no one's business who anyone wanted to marry because that's their choice. It doesn't hurt them and it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Well, true there. They want public acceptance, that's it. They want their condition to be "normalized" and publicized the way a normal relationship is. Marriage, here is an important step.

They should be accepted. There's no reason for them not to be, logically.

Well, homosexuality is "natural", true. But normal? No. Are children with down syndrome normal? Absolutely not. Neither are homosexuals.
I could tell you this, friend, if there was no society at all, and no government that is formed from this society, marriage would not exist. Marriage is a sanctimony of the relationship of two people in public eyes, while giving them the same sanctity in the eyes of the state.
This is why you are able to share property legally, these have been defined in laws since ancient times. Since ancient times, marriage has been a social/governmental institution.

Homosexuality is not Down's Syndrome. Left-handedness isn't normal, either. We don't kill people because of it (anymore). Homosexuality is not a diseases or disorder, it's a state of being. It's not something you can pick, either. I can hope and wish and want to be sexually attracted to women, but I won't be. And marriage, in some kind of form, would exist. Humans want to pair up, we want company. It might not be how it is now, but it'd be around.

[kılıç_mehmet]

It's not anyone's place but they couple's to determine how legitimate their relationship is. Your view of marriage is very cold. I'd like to get married because of my own feelings for another person. I don't care if we'd never jointly own anything because that's not why people get married. People get married so that they can be married. People can also live without chocolate or beer, but they doesn't mean people don't buy them. Yes, love exists outside marriage, but people in love usually want to be married.

But it is. Society determines things.
You romanticize marriage as a matter of love. It's more a matter of logic and a matter of whether you could live with that person for the rest of your life, than of love. We know that love eventually degrades with marriage. Could you fart when in the presence of your girlfriend? I don't even fart when I'm with ukrainian prostitute.
But after you get married...You don't give a damn. Marriage creates families. This is what it is for. Love could, of course be a factor in bringing people a step forward to taking the path of marriage, but love does not keep a marriage going. In fact, it sometimes serves to destroy it.
And why, why on earth would people who love eachother want to get married?
Well, in order to let other people know they are "serious" and not just toying around. To let other people know that they hope to have a future longer than a decade, maximum.
To bring forth children within a proper family.
This is what marriage is for.

Then I especially fear for your children. Teach them a little challenge for authority if only to make sure they don't become victims of it. This should not be taken in context of religion or politics, but any people can become oppressed and they need to have the tools to stick up for themselves.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Nationalism is the very essence of standing up against any authority if the wellbeing of your own people are at stake.
Fear for yourself, not for me, nor for my children.

I don't think of children as a burden, but a joy. And I'm sure they are legitimately children and not some robot (I don't like that turn for children not born of a marriage). Then are you are pro-choice and pro-birth control? (<- I don't mean this offensively or rhetorically, I am just curious)

But unless you are freshly divorced, and receive child money from the father, I'd say you're screwed. Sure, it's joyful, and this is why they dump their newborn babies in front of churches and orphanages.
A child, illegitimate, unwanted and the burden of a single parent, is more of a burden than a joy.
They are "children", but they are born out of a marriage, and are not bound to any of the parties but the one that gave birth to it by any legal or social contract. İllegitimate, they are.
I am not against abortion, however I am not pro-abortion, due to the fact that there are a lot of birth control methods that effectively make abortions only a measure for very extreme cases. But of course, if stupid people continue to have sex without protection, and bring forth their illegitimate pregnancies, they have only two choices. Either get an abortion, to hide their shame, or to bring forth the child.

These are your fellow humans, you're not empathizing with them.

I guess you should get to know me a little bit better before coming up to me with this humanist propaganda.
Of course, they might also be fellow Turks, as far as I am concerned. But they still go against our customs, traditions and culture.
Their marriage is nothing but a mockery of our familial values. No amount of empathy can make me contradict our values, by which I live my life.

Put yourself in their shoes.

When I do that, I come to the same conclusion as I've come to before.

If you weren't allowed to marry the person you loved most in the world and additionally,

There is no such world, comrade Annik.
I could perhaps face opposition from the family of the girl, but then, I'd go back to an age old Turkish tradition. I'd abduct her from her home. That simple.

you were told that your love wasn't legitimate

Well, their love might be legitimate, but they do not fit in the lines of marriage, which is between a man and a woman. Sorry, friend. But this is the way things are. Just because you want it to change doesn't mean it will. Even if it's legalized, people will always think of a man and a woman when thinking of a "married couple".
This is how marriage was put into place.

Marriage has been around longer than most societies and I'd considered no one's business who anyone wanted to marry because that's their choice. It doesn't hurt them and it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Marriage has been around longer than most societies, and in each and every society, it has been exclusively between a man and a woman. Not two men or two women.

If you want a legal union for homosexual couples, you have to look for something else. But no, you want them to be considered "normal" just like a normal couple of a man and a woman, husband and wife.
Even the words for the parties of a marriage "husband" and "wife" are specifically for a male and female, respectively. When people think of a married couple, almost everyone thinks of a husband and wife. This is the way things are. And I think they certainly would not be that way if it shouldn't have been that way.

They should be accepted. There's no reason for them not to be, logically.

Gays? Or their marriage? Well, I accept the existence of gays. I accept their right to exist, just like anyone else. I accept their civil liberties. But marriage is another thing entirely.

Homosexuality is not Down's Syndrome.

Sure, it isn't. But it's close. It's a genetic defect that, in todays world, keeps these individuals from joining normal society as it progressed throughout history. From my viewpoint, such gene defects should be closely examined, and purged from the human gene pool if possible.
Just like down's syndrome.

Left-handedness isn't normal, either.

Is it?

We don't kill people because of it (anymore).

True.

Homosexuality is not a diseases or disorder, it's a state of being.

Just like autism. But autism is still a disorder. Homosexuality is just a bit less tasteful to the normal, average heterosexual person.
Still doesn't keep it from interfering with the "normal state of being".
Which is, to use your genitals for their intended purpose of procreation.

It's not something you can pick, either.

You can't, but would you if you could?

I can hope and wish and want to be sexually attracted to women, but I won't be.

Oh you can certainly do the stuff they do. IF you want it so much, it might just become reality in your mind.
Really a weird person you are.

Humans want to pair up, we want company.

This is not a matter of pairing or company. Marriage is the foundation of society and the institution of family.
Homosexuals are not, and were never a part of this.

[Matt231]

Sure, it isn't. But it's close. It's a genetic defect that, in todays world, keeps these individuals from joining normal society as it progressed throughout history. From my viewpoint, such gene defects should be closely examined, and purged from the human gene pool if possible.
Just like down's syndrome.

WHAT THE FUCK? You can't be serious... How is it a genetic defect? People are attracted to different things.

And it's not about them getting married. It's that they are tired of feeling left out of society because of who they find attractive. Banning gay marriage tells them that their relationships do not belong in the country. It tells them that they are wrong. Legalizing gay marriage would show that these relationships are acceptable.