Healthcare

[Zarathustra]

I think you've touched on what adds to the mystery for most of us (Non-Americans); the fact that we don't actually understand how it works in the U.S. I used to think that if you didn't have health insurance the hospitals flat out refused you admission - essentially leaving you to die - which I found to be a very callous and barbaric notion. I just tried looking it up on Google, and I have to say that I am no further on in understanding how it works. lol

That's because: Basically, it doesn't!
I lived in the US for a while and their healthcaresystem is flawed in every sense of the word. From our point of view anyway.
Obamacare is certainly a step in the right direction, but they still have SUCH a long way to go!
While staying there, I chose not to get any healthinsurance. I found out it would be cheaper to fly home - even if I broke my arm or something that wouldn't even be all that expensive there - than the price of insurance.
And that's not even touching the sore subject of insurance companies sometimes refusing to pay for treatments etc.

[jackman]

sadly enough, i don't even know how it works and i've always lived here. all know is emergency rooms won't refuse you, if you have no insurance, so plenty of people will fill the rooms for even common colds and occupy resources that are needed for real emergencies. that pisses me off. i haven't had health care since i started my company and by sheer luck, i have remained healthy and major accident free. sure, i've drilled a self-tapping sheetmetal screw thru some ductwork and my middle finger simultaneously. the one time i went to the er in the past 9 yrs, it was to get stitches to close a hole in my lip that my tooth came thru, after the claw of a hammer decided to fly into my face. that chunk of cash for 5 stitches came in the form of a bill from temple hospital.

between workman's comp, liability insurance, occupational tax and insuring my work vehicles - my guys will not be offered health care until 2014 when i have no choice (yet, i'll do it gladly). health insurance is hard on small business.

[goddamnit]

There is already a transfer of wealth going on.....




And it isn't the minorities who are benefitting.

I just explicitly stated I am not talking about the status quo, and that I meant socialized healthcare would transfer wealth to minorities. Then you posted a graph that had nothing to do with contrasting healthcare models. I guess you were posting the graph for the sake of sharing rather than a rebuttal?

Also, that graph (in and of itself) is not evidence there is a transfer of wealth or income from the poor to the rich. All it shows is that the upper quintiles have more rapid income increases. I read a great book that explained one reason why technology increases the demand for high-skilled workers and raises the wages more than for low-skilled jobs.

This is not to say there is or is not a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich; rather, I am only claiming the graph alone does not prove your inference.

[Jackalope]

all know is emergency rooms won't refuse you, if you have no insurance, so plenty of people will fill the rooms for even common colds and occupy resources that are needed for real emergencies.

This represents one of the biggest epic fails in healthcare delivery in the USA. Uninsured people have to use the most expensive form of care available, and if they can't pay the bill, it's written off and subsidized by those that can.

So to those that suggest that we shouldn't subsidize the healthcare of the uninsured: We already do, and we're paying far, far more than would be necessary if the uninsured had the same access as the insured.

There was a time when I opposed universal subsidized healthcare - for reasons which I later determined to be irrational. I left that opinion in the dustbin after realizing that my position was irrational and examining it pragmatically.

[Brian37]

As a european (german) I don't get the problems with healthcare in the U.S.

Can someone explain to me why so many americans are against it and on what base ?

An article about it:
http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/d...obamacare/

While America I do think has better law language protecting dissent, IE People vs Larry Flint, as much as we like to think we are ahead of the curve, we have always had to struggle to get with the times, slavery, Native Americans and women rights and voting rights for blacks, and even today gay marriage are part of our history.

So my only explanation is that we suffer far to much from narcissism. I think change is slow for any culture in our species history. You get used to a pattern, it is hard to change.

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There is already a transfer of wealth going on.....




And it isn't the minorities who are benefitting.

I just explicitly stated I am not talking about the status quo, and that I meant socialized healthcare would transfer wealth to minorities. Then you posted a graph that had nothing to do with contrasting healthcare models. I guess you were posting the graph for the sake of sharing rather than a rebuttal?

Also, that graph (in and of itself) is not evidence there is a transfer of wealth or income from the poor to the rich. All it shows is that the upper quintiles have more rapid income increases. I read a great book that explained one reason why technology increases the demand for high-skilled workers and raises the wages more than for low-skilled jobs.

This is not to say there is or is not a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich; rather, I am only claiming the graph alone does not prove your inference.

There is no such thing as a "low skilled" job. People who say that are the people who do it for a summer or a couple days a week. Your garbage man and your dishwasher are more than the task you falsely think is "simple".

This is such an demeaning and insidious claim. It takes a "simple" task and forgets to take into account, WHAT ALL JOBS REQUIRE.

Prioritizing, communication skills, speed, dexterity, planning ahead, conflict resolution, volume control, customer relations.

Scrubbing one dish on a slow day is easy. Doing it on Easter Sunday with newbie bussers and cooks screaming their heads off for dishes because the boss is too cheap to buy more. Low skilled is the cry of those who look down at a small paycheck as if they were offering them cake.

There is NO SUCH THING AS A LOW SKILL JOB! There are simply people who make more and make less. What is easy to one person will be hard to another.

[jackman]

---

all know is emergency rooms won't refuse you, if you have no insurance, so plenty of people will fill the rooms for even common colds and occupy resources that are needed for real emergencies.

This represents one of the biggest epic fails in healthcare delivery in the USA. Uninsured people have to use the most expensive form of care available, and if they can't pay the bill, it's written off and subsidized by those that can.

So to those that suggest that we shouldn't subsidize the healthcare of the uninsured: We already do, and we're paying far, far more than would be necessary if the uninsured had the same access as the insured.

There was a time when I opposed universal subsidized healthcare - for reasons which I later determined to be irrational. I left that opinion in the dustbin after realizing that my position was irrational and examining it pragmatically.

---

[Justtristo]

While President Obama’s health care act (which is essentially similar to Mitt Romney’s one he introduced when governor of Massachusetts) has flaws. The opposition to it seems absolutely amazing, since it is not the least bit socialist.

Because real socialist health care system has things like doctors being paid directly by the government. Along with the government owing and running hospitals and other health care facilities. You have that in the United Kingdom and a lesser degree Australia (with the state run hospital systems)

The flaws I do see is the health care reforms President Obama has introduced impose more costs upon employers, the basic level of insurance required to be taken over too extensive and that insurance companies can still make a profit off at least basic insurance.

In Switzerland for example, the basic insurance which citizens are required to take out is less extensive (however still enough for a lot of people) than in the USA. If you need extra health insurance you can purchase that on top of the basic insurance.

Also in Switzerland if somebody's health care insurance exceeds a percentage of their income, they get a subsidy from the government. Along with employers there not being obliged to pay for their employees health insurance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/health...wanted=all

Apart from not allowing health insurance companies to make a profit off a basic level of health insurance. There is nothing I cannot see a lot of Republicans (apart from the Tea Party Crowd) would object.

[Angrboda]

One of the reasons is that the right in America has become extremely effective at marketing its message.

I think a more important clue is to be found in the histories and unique cultures of nations. All nations, because of their unique histories, develop unique values and mythologies which are as likely to influence political processes as any rational cause. The example of contemporary Germany is a good case in point. Any country that has seen the ravages of fascism as they have is likely to be shy of even weak nationalism. The U.S. is the same way, inheriting values which were both useful in its development and fostered during it. The reinvention of lives by immigrants, as well as a continual western expansion across an untamed landscape led to values of strength, rugged individualism, and self-reliance. These are the same values being pushed in the current healthcare debate. And while it's certainly a distortion to call it socialized medicine, the message is still a potent one in a country that is still fearful of anything remotely Marxist or Communist.

[Brian37]

all know is emergency rooms won't refuse you, if you have no insurance, so plenty of people will fill the rooms for even common colds and occupy resources that are needed for real emergencies.

This represents one of the biggest epic fails in healthcare delivery in the USA. Uninsured people have to use the most expensive form of care available, and if they can't pay the bill, it's written off and subsidized by those that can.

So to those that suggest that we shouldn't subsidize the healthcare of the uninsured: We already do, and we're paying far, far more than would be necessary if the uninsured had the same access as the insured.

There was a time when I opposed universal subsidized healthcare - for reasons which I later determined to be irrational. I left that opinion in the dustbin after realizing that my position was irrational and examining it pragmatically.

I had some idiot on another website say that the poor already have medicade and cant be refused from the emergency room. Who the fuck does he think pays for that? All of us through taxes That is the part that idiot misses.

[goddamnit]

There is NO SUCH THING AS A LOW SKILL JOB! There are simply people who make more and make less. What is easy to one person will be hard to another.

lol. I mean, you are so nice by saying all of this I almost did not want to reply. Clearly, you do not like hurting the feelings of other people and will go out on a limb to be polite. I am just owning up to the facts. Some jobs, like being a neurosurgeon, require an advanced mind that many people don't have.

I had some idiot on another website say that the poor already have medicade and cant be refused from the emergency room. Who the fuck does he think pays for that? All of us through taxes That is the part that idiot misses.

I hate when people act like we have universal health care because of the emergency room. Let's see what those jackasses say after having to visit an emergency room, be rushed out, and get billed outrageous prices.