Current time: 31st October 2014, 11:32

Our server costs $125 a month to run. Since November 2013 we have raised $280!
Please help keep our community online by donating what you can.
Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 4 Votes - 3.75 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
16th July 2012, 17:43
Post: #61
  2k posts! 2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
I think I'd actually agree with you there on the contradictions you sent to me, as the list that's titled "faith alone" never said that was was the only thing, but more like a starting point. However, there are plenty more. Furthermore, it makes you think that if there are so many mistranslations, can the document be trusted?

How about if women who give childbirth are sinful? This is was brought up recently in a conversation with my fiance: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra...aring.html
[Image: SigBarSping_zpscd7e35e1.png]
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 18:03 (This post was last modified: 16th July 2012 18:30 by spockrates.)
Post: #62
    2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
(16th July 2012 17:33)ElDinero Wrote:  
(16th July 2012 17:19)spockrates Wrote:  It would take much time to have everyone in ancient Palestine (men and women) journey to the village or city in which their ancestors were born. The ancient world moved by a slower clock than our world does. We would need some documentation indicating when the census began and when it ended, or some indication of how long each person had to comply. It might have taken place in stages--one tribe of Israel every few years, or one area every few years. Making everyone move at the same time would stop the economy (and taxes paid to Rome). It would defeat the purpose of doing a census--which was to increase the money coming from the Roman occupied territory.

Look, just because it took the Jews forty years to complete a journey that should have taken six weeks, just how much slower was this fucking ancient clock? Like I said, unsupported assertions. You can't back up any of the above, it's pure conjecture.

With regards Salah, I don't see what's causing you the problem. There is a character named Salah. I want to know who his father was.

True. I cannot back up my premise that it took several years to complete the census, or that it was done in stages. Likewise, you cannot back up your premise that the census of everyone in all of ancient Palestine and Judea was carried out all at once in one year. We do know, however that Roman emperors carried out censuses of Egypt and Sicily in stages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

So it is not illogical to propose that the same method was used in to take a census of the vast number of ancient Jewish people in the Roman occupied territory. That being said, I have to agree with you. All that we can say for sure is that neither your premise nor mine can be demonstrated with any degree of certainty. Would you agree it's a stalemate for this line of inquiry?

(16th July 2012 17:43)Annik Wrote:  I think I'd actually agree with you there on the contradictions you sent to me, as the list that's titled "faith alone" never said that was was the only thing, but more like a starting point. However, there are plenty more. Furthermore, it makes you think that if there are so many mistranslations, can the document be trusted?

How about if women who give childbirth are sinful? This is was brought up recently in a conversation with my fiance: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra...aring.html

Thank you for your honesty. I used to be Evangelical and was so sure I thought I knew what the Bible taught until I discovered this. It was an eye-opener to me how the biblical text is so ambiguous that it leads to contrary interpretations. I would not go so far as to say the translations are inaccurate, or contradictory, as to say that people's interpretations are contradictory. The ambiguities encompass not just trivial matters, but central doctrines of Christianity--such as the method by which one gains access to heaven. This is only one cause of the great number of denominations with conflicting beliefs.

An example of contrary interpretations:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)


A Baptist, or Evangelical, or Calvinist, or Lutheran might say that it is grace, through faith alone that saves one from Hell. Good works (good behavior) has nothing to do with it (verse 9). A Catholic would say it is by grace, through faith and works that one is saved, explaining that works we do in our own power (verse 9) do not save us from Hell, but works done in God's power (verse 10) do contribute to our gaining access to heaven. The contradiction arises from a difference of opinion over what the word grace actually means. To the Baptist, it is God's undeserved favor. To the Catholic, it is God's undeserved power. Exact same text--contrary understandings. My thought is that the contradiction of interpretations is due to ambiguity of the biblical text.
"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth."

--Spock
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 18:28
Post: #63
  2k posts! 2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
spockrates Wrote:Thanks FTR. I don't yet see the disagreement between the two authors. Both explain that Jesus caused the tree to wither. Neither mentions Hosea, nor explains a symbolic meaning of the miracle, nor even mentions that there is any metaphor to be gleaned from the event. Please explain.

Quite simply, how do you explain all the references Mark makes to the OT? Another one for you: the words Jesus spoke on the cross are the exact same ones as Psalm 22:1. Why do all these supposedly historical facts reflect almost word for word verses in the OT? Remember, I'm not even bringing up prophetic verses in the OT but rather trivial verses that pop up in Mark's Gospel. Why?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 18:46
Post: #64
    2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
(16th July 2012 13:14)spockrates Wrote:  
(16th July 2012 00:51)RaphielDrake Wrote:  Heres two propositions throughout the Bible in numerous passages that contradict:
1. God is omnipotent, all-powerful and all knowing.
2. We have freewill.

If God has knowledge of events past, future and present then that means there is a single, unchanging path we all travel. Every choice we make is preordained to occur as is the outcome which means it isn't really a choice. We're just following the script of a massive machination.
Ergo, either God is not omnipotent or there is no free-will.
If free-will is implemented then that makes our future unwritten and therefore unpredictable to God, rendering omnipotence meaningless.
If God is omnipotent then that negates freewill, rendering freewill meaningless.
Explain.

Examples:
"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

"For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, "My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,"
calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it."
(Isaiah 46.9-11)

Calvinists and other proponents of Reformed Theology address the apparent contradiction by saying our choices (both for good, or evil) are chosen by God. No free will, no seeming contradictions.

How would you respond to their answer?
Does all of xtardity agree with these calvinists? Do calvinists speak for all xtards? Last time I checked, they were one of the more batshit-crazy sects, including such shining examples as Fred and Shirley Phelps.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 18:48
Post: #65
Best Member 2012! 20k+ posts! 5 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
Quote:Not sure I understand. Augustus lived until 19 August, AD 14, so Herod was alive during the Emperor's census.

You're right, you don't understand. It has nothing to do with Augustus.

Matty says that Herod was so concerned about jesus that he directed his soldiers to slaughter all the infants in "Bethlehem" a clear ripoff of the Moses story which would have been familiar to Jews. No one else, even writers like Josephus who gleefully recount every crime ever attributed to Herod ever mention this one. Herod died in 4 BC which set off a chain of events which led to the eventual Roman annexation of Judaea as a prefecture under the governor of Syria.

On Herod's death his kingdom was divided up among his sons, Antipas, Archelaus, and Phillip. Revolts broke out which were serious enough to require the Syrian legions under Publius Quinctillius Varus to intervene. The revolts were crushed and Herod's sons were installed on their thrones. Archelaus, however, had problems in his territory of Judaea and Idumaea and Samaria. By 6 AD the Judaeans were petitioning Augustus to remove Archelaus and become a Roman prefecture. Augustus agreed and Archelaus was pensioned off to Gaul. In 6, Augustus had assigned Quirinius as the new governor of Syria and Josephus makes clear that he brought along a man named Coponius to be the new prefect of Judaea. We have coins issued by Coponius so Josephus is confirmed in that. Part of Quirinius' and Coponius' mission was to undertake a census of the newly acquired prefecture. Unlike xtian horseshit, there was no census of the whole world for taxation. Roman taxation was not based on head count and there had been no direct taxation of Roman citizens in Italy since the middle of the second century BC, anyway.

Augustus himself in the Res Gestae Divi Augustus tells us that he conducted three lustra which is a count of Roman citizens only. Unfortunately, the dates of these do nothing to help the jesus story.

Lastly, but not least, is the absurdity in "Luke" of having entire populations journey to their ancestral homes to be registered. It would be like Canadians having to go back to Britain ( or France!). Moreover, "Luke" seems to have forgotten that Nazareth ( which apparently did not even exist in the first century) would have been in Galilee which was not part of the Judaea prefecture and thus "Mary and Joseph" would have been going to another country for a census which did not concern them in the least.

Learn some history and then you'll be able to see what a pile of shit your gospels are.
[Image: Atheismreality_zps62a2c96a.jpg]
Rate user Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Kudos given by (3): Zen Badger, rasetsu, ElDinero
16th July 2012, 18:56
Post: #66
    2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
(16th July 2012 17:17)spockrates Wrote:  
(16th July 2012 17:14)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  [Image: 23537230.jpg]

I changed my mind after realizing there are more than vicious knids at this forum!

Big Grin

That's VERM-icious Knid to you, buster.




I've got my eye on you...


[Image: 2583631027_8c6bbc208b.jpg]
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 20:57 (This post was last modified: 16th July 2012 20:58 by spockrates.)
Post: #67
    2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
(16th July 2012 18:28)FallentoReason Wrote:  
spockrates Wrote:Thanks FTR. I don't yet see the disagreement between the two authors. Both explain that Jesus caused the tree to wither. Neither mentions Hosea, nor explains a symbolic meaning of the miracle, nor even mentions that there is any metaphor to be gleaned from the event. Please explain.

Quite simply, how do you explain all the references Mark makes to the OT? Another one for you: the words Jesus spoke on the cross are the exact same ones as Psalm 22:1. Why do all these supposedly historical facts reflect almost word for word verses in the OT? Remember, I'm not even bringing up prophetic verses in the OT but rather trivial verses that pop up in Mark's Gospel. Why?

Mark makes no reference to Hosea in chapter 11. When Mark does make a reference to an OT prophet, he names the prophet as the source. For example:

It is written in Isaiah the prophet:

2“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way” —
3 “a voice of one calling in the desert,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”

(Mark 1)

Why would the author name the prophet in the first chapter, but leave out the name of the prophet in the 11th chapter?
"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth."

--Spock
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 21:05
Post: #68
  1k posts! 3 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
Aaaand...Salah's father was?
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 21:06 (This post was last modified: 16th July 2012 21:32 by spockrates.)
Post: #69
    2 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
(16th July 2012 18:48)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Not sure I understand. Augustus lived until 19 August, AD 14, so Herod was alive during the Emperor's census.

You're right, you don't understand. It has nothing to do with Augustus.

Matty says that Herod was so concerned about jesus that he directed his soldiers to slaughter all the infants in "Bethlehem" a clear ripoff of the Moses story which would have been familiar to Jews. No one else, even writers like Josephus who gleefully recount every crime ever attributed to Herod ever mention this one. Herod died in 4 BC which set off a chain of events which led to the eventual Roman annexation of Judaea as a prefecture under the governor of Syria.

On Herod's death his kingdom was divided up among his sons, Antipas, Archelaus, and Phillip. Revolts broke out which were serious enough to require the Syrian legions under Publius Quinctillius Varus to intervene. The revolts were crushed and Herod's sons were installed on their thrones. Archelaus, however, had problems in his territory of Judaea and Idumaea and Samaria. By 6 AD the Judaeans were petitioning Augustus to remove Archelaus and become a Roman prefecture. Augustus agreed and Archelaus was pensioned off to Gaul. In 6, Augustus had assigned Quirinius as the new governor of Syria and Josephus makes clear that he brought along a man named Coponius to be the new prefect of Judaea. We have coins issued by Coponius so Josephus is confirmed in that. Part of Quirinius' and Coponius' mission was to undertake a census of the newly acquired prefecture. Unlike xtian horseshit, there was no census of the whole world for taxation. Roman taxation was not based on head count and there had been no direct taxation of Roman citizens in Italy since the middle of the second century BC, anyway.

Augustus himself in the Res Gestae Divi Augustus tells us that he conducted three lustra which is a count of Roman citizens only. Unfortunately, the dates of these do nothing to help the jesus story.

Lastly, but not least, is the absurdity in "Luke" of having entire populations journey to their ancestral homes to be registered. It would be like Canadians having to go back to Britain ( or France!). Moreover, "Luke" seems to have forgotten that Nazareth ( which apparently did not even exist in the first century) would have been in Galilee which was not part of the Judaea prefecture and thus "Mary and Joseph" would have been going to another country for a census which did not concern them in the least.

Learn some history and then you'll be able to see what a pile of shit your gospels are.

I'm sorry, I thought you were making the point that this passage,

1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to his own town to register.

(Luke 2)

contradicted another passage of the Bible. The topic of discussion is whether there are any contradictions between two different passages of scripture. The topic of whether the Bible contradicts ancient history is one better left for a different discussion thread. Please let's stick to the topic.

Smile

(16th July 2012 21:05)ElDinero Wrote:  Aaaand...Salah's father was?

The answer: I don't know. My question: What is the topic of discussion for this discussion thread, my friend?

(16th July 2012 18:56)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(16th July 2012 17:17)spockrates Wrote:  I changed my mind after realizing there are more than vicious knids at this forum!

Big Grin

That's VERM-icious Knid to you, buster.




I've got my eye on you...


[Image: 2583631027_8c6bbc208b.jpg]

Doh! Right you are! I've got no where to hide from you, Dog!

[Image: dog-bounty.jpg]


(16th July 2012 18:46)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(16th July 2012 13:14)spockrates Wrote:  Calvinists and other proponents of Reformed Theology address the apparent contradiction by saying our choices (both for good, or evil) are chosen by God. No free will, no seeming contradictions.

How would you respond to their answer?
Does all of xtardity agree with these calvinists? Do calvinists speak for all xtards? Last time I checked, they were one of the more batshit-crazy sects, including such shining examples as Fred and Shirley Phelps.

Calvinists would say they are the chosen few, and you're not--so you have no choice but to be deceived into thinking they're lunes. You're predestined to be one of the damned daffy ducks! (I don't agree with them, mind you. But that might be because I'm daffy too, and just don't know it!)

Shock

If you want to have fun seeing what makes them tick, there is a forum call carm.org many of them frequent. There are a few good atheists there, too. Just watch out for the moderators, they'll boot you off the forum if they don't like you.
"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth."

--Spock
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
16th July 2012, 21:30
Post: #70
  1k posts! 3 years membership!
RE: Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
(16th July 2012 21:06)spockrates Wrote:  The answer: I don't know. My question: What is the topic of discussion for this discussion thread, my friend?

Ok, if you need it spelled out for you. Two different names are credited with fathering Salah. And it's not two different people, they're described as being in the same lineage, it's just Chinese whispers resulting in two different versions of events.
Rate user Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Without citing the bible, what marks the bible as the one book with God's message? whateverist 99 11081 8th January 2013 01:55
Last Post: Mark 13:13
  Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict poc243 43 7953 25th March 2009 16:57
Last Post: EvidenceVersusFaith



User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)