Judaism and Origins of Christianity

[Jeffonthenet]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have read some materials by E.P. Sanders and not particularly impressed. His work start from the notion that a historical Jesus existed and then builds upon this premise. Confirmatory bias is something I can do without!

As far as I am aware, every scholar in a relevant field who has a teaching job believes that Jesus existed.

Let me rephrase:
His work start from the notion that a historical Jesus Christ, in the form of the divine Messiah, existed and then builds upon this premise.

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly. And everyone recognizes that "Christ" was his title, and not his last name. However, that there was a historical Jesus who came from Nazereth is in no way disproved by these facts.

[Forsaken]

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly. And everyone recognizes that "Christ" was his title, and not his last name. However, that there was a historical Jesus who came from Nazereth is in no way disproved by these facts.

Neither proved.

[Angrboda]

I don't know about specific works, but I think there is plenty of evidence that Jesus fit within a well established Judaic tradition of apocalyptic preachers. There's a lot of evidence from the Jewish literature itself, things like the Hasmonean Empire, Maccabees and the Book of David all point to a mindset of apocalypticism which was thick in the air centuries before the rabbi known as Yeshua. One might even interpret the Jewish revolt of 66 A.D. in this context. Some people, like former bishop Shelby Spong, also suggest that the form of the gospels suggests a liturgical narrative which was constructed to align with Jewish holidays. And then there's Jesus' own words about the coming kingdom. (I imagine more evidence might be drawn from the dead sea scrolls (and other things related to the community at Qumran) and the texts from Nag Hammadi.)

[Minimalist]

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly.

"Jesus" bears no resemblance to the messiah which judaism anticipated.

There's a lot of evidence from the Jewish literature itself,

Which assumes that "literature" was not written and/or edited after the fact.

The Hasmonean/Maccabee stories in particular seem to flow from a power struggle between Hellenized jews and non-Hellenized jews.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly. And everyone recognizes that "Christ" was his title

Yeah, that's right. The idea of the Messiah is found throughout the Old Testament. The prophecies are numerous,specific and inclusive.(all or nothing)

The word "Christ" comes from the Greek 'Christos', which is a translation of the Hebrew word 'mashiach' meaning 'annointed'. Traditionally a mashiac or messiah was a king or high priest annointed with oil.


THE Messiah is to be a warrior king, military political AND spiritual saviour of the Jewish people, in the Davidic tradition. The Jesus of the New Testament did not come close to to fulfilling prophecy.


Actually bothering to read the prophecies shows Jesus was a very different person from messiah of prophecy and explains why the Jews have always sensibly dismissed him out of hand. Perhaps the most fascinating thing about the messiah is that he is most definitely not divine,merely a normal man.The full Wiki article is worth reading.

Ancient Israel
Main article: Hebrew Bible

Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.

Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

[Minimalist]

Any moment now one of the dickheads will be along to explain how you are taking all of that out of context, Pad.

It's practically a reflex for them.

[Jeffonthenet]

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly. And everyone recognizes that "Christ" was his title, and not his last name. However, that there was a historical Jesus who came from Nazereth is in no way disproved by these facts.

Neither proved.

Nothing in history is ever 100%, but it is also the case that almost nothing in life is ever 100%. I would recommend a rather anti-Christian historian's work on the topic,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehr...49544.html

I am going through his book now.

---

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly. And everyone recognizes that "Christ" was his title

Yeah, that's right. The idea of the Messiah is found throughout the Old Testament. The prophecies are numerous,specific and inclusive.(all or nothing)

The word "Christ" comes from the Greek 'Christos', which is a translation of the Hebrew word 'mashiach' meaning 'annointed'. Traditionally a mashiac or messiah was a king or high priest annointed with oil.


THE Messiah is to be a warrior king, military political AND spiritual saviour of the Jewish people, in the Davidic tradition. The Jesus of the New Testament did not come close to to fulfilling prophecy.


Actually bothering to read the prophecies shows Jesus was a very different person from messiah of prophecy and explains why the Jews have always sensibly dismissed him out of hand. Perhaps the most fascinating thing about the messiah is that he is most definitely not divine,merely a normal man.The full Wiki article is worth reading.

Ancient Israel
Main article: Hebrew Bible

Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.

Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

Your comments suggest that Jesus did exist, for who would invent a messiah that is so, at first glance, apparently contrary to the prophecies about him? However, a closer look at the situation shows that it is quite possible as Christians have always supposed, for Jesus to come back and finish his work here. Dr. Michael Brown has made some good arguments in this regard where he goes through all of the prophecies that Jesus has fulfilled, and points out that Jesus did A through M, and this suggests that he will finish the M through Z. I don't recall another of his arguments exactly, but he also makes a good case that the messiah had to come before the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD, and that Jesus is the only candidate that fits the bill in history. We also find that looking at how past prophecies are actually fulfilled, it is entirely consistent with this counter-intuitive (different than the first glance impression) way of fulfillment. With regards to Jesus divinity, I confess that I am sometimes unsure if he was God Himself, though I don't think the prophecies you cited exclude a divine nature, they just include a human nature which the Christian creeds intentionally state that Jesus had.

---

I don't know about specific works, but I think there is plenty of evidence that Jesus fit within a well established Judaic tradition of apocalyptic preachers. There's a lot of evidence from the Jewish literature itself, things like the Hasmonean Empire, Maccabees and the Book of David all point to a mindset of apocalypticism which was thick in the air centuries before the rabbi known as Yeshua. One might even interpret the Jewish revolt of 66 A.D. in this context. Some people, like former bishop Shelby Spong, also suggest that the form of the gospels suggests a liturgical narrative which was constructed to align with Jewish holidays. And then there's Jesus' own words about the coming kingdom. (I imagine more evidence might be drawn from the dead sea scrolls (and other things related to the community at Qumran) and the texts from Nag Hammadi.)

The dead sea scrolls do seem consistent with this. I have heard from a Scrolls scholar that their founding verse was the same verse quoted in the New Testament for the mission of John the Baptist, "A voice crying in the wilderness…" They were also, I think, an apocalyptic group as well… and I know they were waiting for a "Teacher of Righetousness," who likely arrived at the group during their existence, as they seem to start talking about him as if he was there (possibly, though not certainly Jesus or John the Baptist). Outside of some of the of sayings Gospel of Thomas, and sometimes the "gospel of Peter" the Nag Hammadi texts are not considered reliable first century sources. I have not heard of Spong's claim till now, though I suspect that it is not inconsistent with the gospels being historical sources as historical sources in the ancient world did not see it to be bad history to rearrange the order of events to fit a purpose. The important thing was the event, and I think, also keeping intact the correct sayings of the person being quoted.

[Minimalist]

Xtians have been cumming in their pants since 1947 trying to make the DSS say something ( anything!!!) about their godboy.

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/53/dead-sea-scrolls/

What do the Dead Sea Scrolls say about Jesus?

Nothing. The Dead Sea Scrolls predate Jesus and do not mention him. A few scholars once argued that the “Teacher of Righteousness” mentioned in the texts referred to Jesus, but as more of the scrolls have been published, this theory has been completely discredited.

Sucks to be you!

[greneknight]

The idea of a messiah existed in Judaism pre-Jesus certainly. And everyone recognizes that "Christ" was his title

Yeah, that's right. The idea of the Messiah is found throughout the Old Testament. The prophecies are numerous,specific and inclusive.(all or nothing)

The word "Christ" comes from the Greek 'Christos', which is a translation of the Hebrew word 'mashiach' meaning 'annointed'. Traditionally a mashiac or messiah was a king or high priest annointed with oil.


THE Messiah is to be a warrior king, military political AND spiritual saviour of the Jewish people, in the Davidic tradition. The Jesus of the New Testament did not come close to to fulfilling prophecy.


Actually bothering to read the prophecies shows Jesus was a very different person from messiah of prophecy and explains why the Jews have always sensibly dismissed him out of hand. Perhaps the most fascinating thing about the messiah is that he is most definitely not divine,merely a normal man.The full Wiki article is worth reading.

Ancient Israel
Main article: Hebrew Bible

Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.

Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[4] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

Thanks, this post is very educational. I'm saving it for future reference.

[Minimalist]

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

"Fuck that," sayeth the Romans!

"You are fond of saying that in the old days this same most high god made these and greater promises to those who gave heed to his commandments and worshipped him. But at the risk of appearing unkind, I ask how much good has been done by those promises have done either the Jews before you or you in your present circumstances. And would you have us put our faith in such a god? Instead of being masters of the whole world, the jews today have no home of any kind."

--Celsus c 175 AD