Feminism? What?

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

So the REAL reason Atheism+ came about was because the women were feeling victimized. Some idiot did something stupid while drunk at a conference. Someone said "I'll rape you." in some Modern Warfare 2 lobby to some girl. Some internet trolls sent death threats. And women are now living in constant fear of being raped and murdered. Through Xbox microphones. Or something. And all of a sudden all of the atheist world is taking sides over this issue. My response is kinda two-fold over this whole thing.

1) Do all women really have it all that bad? Compared to everybody else?

2) Why are isolated incidents that happen to women just milked for weeks and months for the emotional drama?

3) Now I know on one side you will be white knights who truly see women today as worse off than pre-abolition African-Americans.

And there are others who see women as the privileged class.

Is there any common ground to be found here? Any compromise? Any attempt to at least see and understand the other point of view while disagreeing with it?

[Tiberius]

Yeah, the compromise is to take an unbiased look at the western world and realise that actually, men and women are pretty much equal now.

There are still some ways in which men are more privileged than women, but they are small and will be fixed with time. There are also some ways in which women have become more privileged than men, especially when it comes to family law.

By the way, some friends and I are creating a parody: http://atheismplusplus.com

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

As far as I know this whole thing is run by someone at FTB. And they are so dogmatic, so close-minded I'm desperate to believe that they have no hand in shaping or leading the atheist movement whatsoever.

They don't represent a big portion of reality and I think if they get to define atheism, atheism will lose its soul to a political agenda.

[cratehorus]

So the REAL reason Atheism+ came about was because the women were feeling victimized.

bullshit

Some idiot did something stupid while drunk at a conference.

which one... you?

Someone said "I'll rape you."

who your uncle?

in some Modern Warfare 2 lobby to some girl.

what the fuck is modern warfare 2?

And women are now living in constant fear of being raped and murdered.

they've always been living "in constant fear of being raped and murdered."

Through Xbox microphones. Or something.

i disagree with this

And all of a sudden all of the atheist world is taking sides over this issue.

over feminism? So.... atleast you're saying religion is the only real thing responsible for persecuting of women...........

My response is kinda two-fold over this whole thing.

I think it's more than that.... atleast four-fold

1) Do all women really have it all that bad? Compared to everybody else?

on average yes.....

2) Why are isolated incidents that happen to women just milked for weeks and months for the emotional drama?

because television propagandists want to keep you distracted and make you think your watching real news, in order to prevet from seeking out real crimes ad travesties that occur almost daily

(I'm assuming your talking about the constant "missing pretty white girl alerts" all over the news, and your not just trying to be an overall dumbshit)

3) Now I know on one side you will be white knights who truly see women today as worse off than pre-abolition African-Americans.

women worldwide? I think you need to learn that the world is bigger than the US........... you might want to choose a better term than "white knights" before making a racial comments....... I'm assuming you don't know what the term "white knights" mean and you just mean "high horse".

And there are others who see women as the privileged class.

who?.... you?

Is there any common ground to be found here? Any compromise?

mostly just tell people like you.... why their stupid and just go from there....

Any attempt to at least see and understand the other point of view while disagreeing with it?

isn't that an oxymoron?

[Reforged]

So the REAL reason Atheism+ came about was because the women were feeling victimized. Some idiot did something stupid while drunk at a conference. Someone said "I'll rape you." in some Modern Warfare 2 lobby to some girl. Some internet trolls sent death threats. And women are now living in constant fear of being raped and murdered. Through Xbox microphones. Or something.

"Or something"...
Ok... link? Quote? Proof of any kind that this is the REAL reason Atheism+ came about?
I mean I'm not a fan of Atheism+ and for all I know that may well be the reason but you can't make a claim like that without something to back it up.

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

So the REAL reason Atheism+ came about was because the women were feeling victimized. Some idiot did something stupid while drunk at a conference. Someone said "I'll rape you." in some Modern Warfare 2 lobby to some girl. Some internet trolls sent death threats. And women are now living in constant fear of being raped and murdered. Through Xbox microphones. Or something.

"Or something"...
Ok... link? Quote? Proof of any kind that this is the REAL reason Atheism+ came about?
I mean I'm not a fan of Atheism+ and for all I know that may well be the reason but you can't make a claim like that without something to back it up.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/08/atheism/

Time 2 read.

Of course, it's not all Jen. There's been a bit of tidal wave and her story was just the crest of it. But the theme to the story is pretty much the same: "Women are victims, men are pigs."

Just check out the FTB website.

[Tiberius]

There is a very small number of ultra-feminists who unfortunately seem to have brainwashed a lot of people into thinking their misandric ramblings about the atheist community are accurate.

Nobody is denying that there are assholes in the atheist movement, but the terms "sexist" and "misogynist" are thrown around so loosely they have lost almost all meaning.

[Annik]

There is a very small number of ultra-feminists who unfortunately seem to have brainwashed a lot of people into thinking their misandric ramblings about the atheist community are accurate.

Nobody is denying that there are assholes in the atheist movement, but the terms "sexist" and "misogynist" are thrown around so loosely they have lost almost all meaning.

Semantic Saturation.


EDIT: This mostly applies toward speech, but slightly related and pretty interesting.

[TaraJo]

And women are now living in constant fear of being raped and murdered.

they've always been living "in constant fear of being raped and murdered."[/quote]

That's part of the problem, IMO. I'm a woman but I'm not going to live my life in fear.

over feminism? So.... atleast you're saying religion is the only real thing responsible for persecuting of women...........

No, it's not. There are out dated sex stereotypes that are hurting both sexes that we're upholding today in the name of 'tradition.'

1) Do all women really have it all that bad? Compared to everybody else?

on average yes.....

While women may have it more difficult in a general sense, it's also fair to say women have it easier in certain, specific senses. Also, it's fair to examine just how much more difficult women have it and if we think a group is over or understating how difficult things are, we have permission to call them on it.

For example, take a look at male objectification in progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMbTXTugnI8

3) Now I know on one side you will be white knights who truly see women today as worse off than pre-abolition African-Americans.

women worldwide? I think you need to learn that the world is bigger than the US........... you might want to choose a better term than "white knights" before making a racial comments....... I'm assuming you don't know what the term "white knights" mean and you just mean "high horse".

1) You know what this person meant and the message had no racial intent. Stop it; you're just picking hairs.

2) If we're going to judge the condition of women in places like Iran or Saudi Arabia, yes, then things are a much bigger problem. However, the problems with those places go far beyond misogyny. In fact, if you fix the other problems they have like a theocratic government, lack of education or extreme income disparity, society will probably change in a manner that will encourage suffrage.

And there are others who see women as the privileged class.

who?.... you?

I have seen those others; they're just the flip side to the feminist extremists and they both have the same mental block: so stuck on their own, personal issues that they can't see a larger picture where things aren't really as one sided as you think.

One thing I can say is, if you're a man who can't find any social services or who is a victim of domestic violence and can't find anyone who will take you seriously or you're getting screwed over by family courts or if you're afraid being around children at all will give you the label of 'pedophile,' then I can understand why your personal feelings would see it as being one sided one way. If you're a woman who feels discouraged from seeking a job in science or big business or who is afraid to be in sports, I can understand why you see things the other way.

Any attempt to at least see and understand the other point of view while disagreeing with it?

isn't that an oxymoron?

Not really. I'm dating someone from a fundamentalist family and by examining them, I'm learning more and more about the fundamentalist view of the world. I don't agree with it, but I'm starting to understand how they think and what their gripes are.

I think that's part of the problem, that mindset. We have extreme mindsets in the battle of the sexes, both convinced that their side is right and the other side is evil and wrong. If someone tries to see both sides and acknowledge that both sides have legitimate issues and real complaints, instead of bringing both sides together, you get both sides to hate you. It's frustrating how much people want to find divisions here instead of any common ground.

However, as for this specific incident, I have another theory. I'm seeing most progressive groups give almost a blind faith to anyone who claims the title of 'feminist.' I can understand why; I don't want to be on the same side as people like Rick Santorum or Todd Akin. However, that blind faith doesn't fly well in atheist circles. We question, we examine, we're skeptical by nature. I'm not going to believe something is misogyny just because someone told me it is any more than I'm going to believe something is a sign of God because someone told me it is. There seems to be a knee jerk reaction in feminism where, whenever your goals are questioned, you assume the person is attacking you (and I'll be the first to admit, they usually are). However, I think atheists tend to question everything. So I can see why there would be the appearance of conflict between the two and I can understand why people might seem hostile when they really didn't intend to be, but if we can put all our pitchforks down long enough to listen to the other side in good faith, we may learn something.

[festive1]

So the REAL reason Atheism+ came about was because the women were feeling victimized. Some idiot did something stupid while drunk at a conference. Someone said "I'll rape you." in some Modern Warfare 2 lobby to some girl. Some internet trolls sent death threats. And women are now living in constant fear of being raped and murdered. Through Xbox microphones. Or something. And all of a sudden all of the atheist world is taking sides over this issue. My response is kinda two-fold over this whole thing.

1) Do all women really have it all that bad? Compared to everybody else?

2) Why are isolated incidents that happen to women just milked for weeks and months for the emotional drama?

3) Now I know on one side you will be white knights who truly see women today as worse off than pre-abolition African-Americans.

And there are others who see women as the privileged class.

Is there any common ground to be found here? Any compromise? Any attempt to at least see and understand the other point of view while disagreeing with it?

The egalitarian-ness (is that a word?) of a society is often linked with the privileges it allows women. Remember, women got the vote here in the US after former slaves did. Also, how well educated a person is correlates more closely to how well educated their mother is rather than their father. Which makes sense because women are often the primary caregivers for children.
Women in most western countries don't have it bad. Women in Afghanistan do. A lot depends on where a woman lives, and even what culture or sub-culture she operates in. That being said, women in western countries are subjected to more threats and harassment, stemming solely from their gender, than men are. Here in DC we recently had a string of gropings where a man would pull up on his bike, grab a woman's crotch, then pedal away. This kind of violation doesn't happen to men so much as women. Women are more likely to be physically violated, though newer stats are showing men are admitting to being physically violated (especially in childhood) in greater numbers. But I see this as contributing to an overall impression on the female cultural psyche that typically doesn't seem to present itself amongst males. For instance, when going out for an evening, I know that I've thought about the length of my skirt, kind of makeup I wear, how I fix my hair, etc. in relation to the amount of attention I want (or don't want) to deal with (both for good, desired attention, and in terms of unsolicited and unwanted attention). I don't think men typically go through that same process. I think on a conscious or unconscious level a lot of women understand that they could be violated. I think most women read a news article (like the aforementioned groping incidents) and realize that it could be anyone, both the victim and the perpetrator, and on some level they go on the defense. If a woman you know personally seems to dwell upon reports of women being physically violated, I would guess that it's likely she is coping with her own trauma. Current stats are 1 in 4 (and some are as high as 1 in 3) women have been physically violated, though many do not report such crimes.
Personally, I haven't had my feminist sensibilities stepped upon by atheist writings/views/whatnot. I don't see the sexes in terms of one being better than the other, nor being equal. Women have their strengths and men have others, and there is a lot of overlap. What I mean by this is men are typically attributed with higher scores in math and science, but that's not to say that women can't and don't excel in these fields. Similarly, some women are not very empathic, as is typically ascribed to their sex, whereas some men are very empathic. I view the sexes as complementary rather than at odds. But on the having babies front, women kick men's asses.