A message to Islam

[greneknight]

If you are implying that I am delusional it is a false claim. I hold no illusions that things will change over night. But only a fool sits and complains and doesnt even care to try.

I am quite sure the slaves of America thought that slavery would never change. I am quite sure that women at one time thought why try to vote, that will never happen.

That is utter bullshit. I have had Muslim friends and even a former Muslim now atheist, who was from Morroco, who wants to see the same thing I do. I think you underestimate the empathy our species can and does have. Change cannot happen if no one dares to try.

There are no garuntees to life. But I am damned sure going to try and change is possible otherwise the oppresion in our human history that we no longer have in the west, would still exist.

"Nothings going to change" yea, with that attitude you are sure to fail. I'd rather fail trying than do nothing and insure failure.

If Christianity can leave the Dark Ages Islam can escape it's own uncivil barbarity. I'd like to give my fellow human that oportunity. Humans can be civil as much as they can be barbaric. So it is up to us what we promote.

No, I did not say nothing's gonna change. I said appealing to Muslim extremists won't work. I did say I had a secret plan that would work without hurting anyone. I think it's a fool proof plan.

[Brian37]

I agree that there has to be Muslims encouraging human rights and making a stand against extremism but at the same time Muslim extremists are quite violent and probably won't hesitate to kill someone they view to be guilty of heresy. You can see why there isn't a strong Muslim opposition to extremism when you take this into account.

There isn't because of fear that dominates the theocracies in the east. But like I said, never underestimate the positive side of our species. It is up to us to plant the seeds of non violence.

There will always be an downside and upside to human behavior. There will always be division to some degree. But knowing what the west has acheived, and the oppression it got over, the question isn't can that happen in the east, but will it?

I think it cant if we do nothing and accept the status quo.

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If you are implying that I am delusional it is a false claim. I hold no illusions that things will change over night. But only a fool sits and complains and doesnt even care to try.

I am quite sure the slaves of America thought that slavery would never change. I am quite sure that women at one time thought why try to vote, that will never happen.

That is utter bullshit. I have had Muslim friends and even a former Muslim now atheist, who was from Morroco, who wants to see the same thing I do. I think you underestimate the empathy our species can and does have. Change cannot happen if no one dares to try.

There are no garuntees to life. But I am damned sure going to try and change is possible otherwise the oppresion in our human history that we no longer have in the west, would still exist.

"Nothings going to change" yea, with that attitude you are sure to fail. I'd rather fail trying than do nothing and insure failure.

If Christianity can leave the Dark Ages Islam can escape it's own uncivil barbarity. I'd like to give my fellow human that oportunity. Humans can be civil as much as they can be barbaric. So it is up to us what we promote.

No, I did not say nothing's gonna change. I said appealing to Muslim extremists won't work. I did say I had a secret plan that would work without hurting anyone. I think it's a fool proof plan.

Ok, but that still doesn't change what I said. You cant appeal to right wing Christian nuts either. The key is to challenge the moderates of any religious label to turn to their own and put pressure on the nuts in their bunch to knock it off.

There will always be to some degree people too far gone to listen to reason. But you can appeal to those who are not to minimize the harm done by the extremes of a given society.

[downbeatplumb]

Islam is the touchiest religion around at the moment isn't it.

They need to lighten up and have a few brews.

[5thHorseman]

Islam is ridiculously touchy. At least Christians laugh at shit like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORIICgi-0GI

[Brian37]

Islam is the touchiest religion around at the moment isn't it.

They need to lighten up and have a few brews.

Allah Chocolate bar. Yea it is far too touchy. But again, all forms of tribalism be it political or religious has the potential to become intollerant. Stalin and Christian dark ages both were examples of human cruelty.

Islam merely is the biggest problem right now. The underpinings of state or religious facism, are always a potentail in a tribal species.

They cannot see how easy peace would be if they would just allow for ridicule and blasphemy and merely fight back with their voices instead of using violence.

What they cannot see, or refuse to see is that their are all sorts of people in the west from all economic and political and religious classes, that do see their suffering. I was horrified by the asshole sniper in Iran who murdered that female protestor. I am constantly horrified by the over reaction of Isreal sometimes.

But at the same time, it is hard for me to listen to anyone who makes threats rather than appeal or peaceful dissent.

I'd like to see the day when we can all bitch and blaspeme each other no matter our positions, without fear of our neibhor or our government. To me it really is no different than two sports fans getting to the point of allowing the trash talk, knowing it is merely a game. Unfortunatly religion and politics poisons humanity by mixing to the point of violence.

No Muslim reading this can accuse most atheists of bigotry. We are as much a minority in the Christian west as any living in the west. We do understand the bigotry and phobia aimed at us.

But what we do have here that needs to be fostered in the east is that murder is murder no mater who is doing it or why they are doing it. If I kill a Muslim for being a Muslim, my government will arrest me. If a Muslim kills me for being an atheist, my govenment will have them arrested.

But when someone is merely sticking to words like "burn in hell atheist", be it a Christian or a Muslim, the differnece is that I won't kill you, even if I speak out against you.

That is a seed I think we can foster with moderates who can and will in turn, turn within and tell those in their ranks "enough".

This is a tactic Harris promotes. To go after the moderates and the liberals of all religions.

[Anomalocaris]

Islam is the touchiest religion around at the moment isn't it.

It's the mark of an religion that can't cope with progress and modernity and is therefore lashing violently out at any reminder of the abyss it is near.

[Mystic]

"Extremist" (whatever that means anymore) kill their own people or people of different sects, let alone American officials.

Where was the West in condemning the killing of Iranian scientists? No they were quite happy that they were killed. Muslim blood seems to be cheap in American eyes too, with all sorts of civilians dying from drone attack, to bombings, to gun shots..

This is why many Muslims are not going out of their way to condemn it.

Neither side is peaceful. Sorry the west has through out history taken blood of other nations cheaper then their own interest.

They supported dictator coup's just to oppose ideologies, not really caring how much blood would be split.

Ironically, the west are supporting these same extremist in Syria, that would slaughter Alawites as well then want to kill shias in Lebanon and Iraq.

The west supported Israel when it attacked Lebanon, it has stopped UN sanctions on it for the crimes against humanity it has committed, and takes Lebanese and Palestine blood as cheap.

Respect begets respect.

Violence begets violence.

Peace begets peace.

Hate begets hate.

That's just how things roll.

[Brian37]

"Extremist" (whatever that means anymore) kill their own people or people of different sects, let alone American officials.

Where was the West in condemning the killing of Iranian scientists? No they were quite happy that they were killed. Muslim blood seems to be cheap in American eyes too, with all sorts of civilians dying from drone attack, to bombings, to gun shots..

This is why many Muslims are not going out of their way to condemn it.

Neither side is peaceful. Sorry the west has through out history taken blood of other nations cheaper then their own interest.

They supported dictator coup's just to oppose ideologies, not really caring how much blood would be split.

Ironically, the west are supporting these same extremist in Syria, that would slaughter Alawites as well then want to kill shias in Lebanon and Iraq.

The west supported Israel when it attacked Lebanon, it has stopped UN sanctions on it for the crimes against humanity it has committed, and takes Lebanese and Palestine blood as cheap.

Respect begets respect.

Violence begets violence.

Peace begets peace.

Hate begets hate.

That's just how things roll.

You are dealing with human nature. But the difference is even with our sometimes undue collateral damage as a response, we are still in the west collectively morally ahead in the overal concept of civility.

Hate does beget hate. But how you deal with it is important. I see no better way than for humans to get along than to get over emotions and bitching and fucking allow it and agree to the common ground of non violence, even in the face of hate.

Otherwise if we get into taboos and try to force those on each other, then I would be justified as an atheist to murder a Christian for equating me to Hitler.

We are not better in the sense that we are the same species and always have been. But we are better in the sense that we have learned, all be it the hard way, that we can be civil and non violent, even in the face of hate.

We are still the same species no matter what label we are. Humans will always be capable of compassion and cruelty. That is not lost on me in the least. But it is NOT equal. The west is more in tune with the human condition. The idea that the individual should have the diginity to live without fear of violence from either their neighbor or government.

Unless one can handle hearing offensive things without responding in violence, I have no use or sympathy for such a selfish childish narcissistic person.

You could argue context of situation as to what is said and to who. A lot like some don't like porn and would agree we shouldn't sell it to children, but we don't have an outright ban on it.

There is a huge difference between saying hateful things, and using violence. The west has a much longer history of letting the words fly while agreeing that violence is never acceptable no matter what is said to you.

WHEN if ever, the majoritity of the Middle East gets to that point, then that would make them intelectually equal. Right now however most of that region is still stuck in its own selfish dark ages.

[Mystic]

You are looking at one thing the west is better at (Freedom of speech), but don't look at faults at the other stuff the makes you like barbarians to the world.

Easy to praise one's own people, but condemn others.

Also, in the West, while you can insult everyone, be careful of course never to say anything against the Jews/Zionist, because you can lose your job, or if you question the holocaust in public, in some countries, you can be put in jail.

[Brian37]

I agree that there has to be Muslims encouraging human rights and making a stand against extremism but at the same time Muslim extremists are quite violent and probably won't hesitate to kill someone they view to be guilty of heresy. You can see why there isn't a strong Muslim opposition to extremism when you take this into account.
How do you counter something like that which is so widely spread and has so few scruples?

There are pictures you can goggle on the net, of the dominance of the KKK and Christian bigotry and facism that had a grip on America, even after the Civil War had defeated slavery. There was a point when Christian bigotry had a majority of our country.

We constantly combat even in the west attempts to create fascist monopolies, even if they do not currently exist now. I look at the oppression minorities in America have over come and because we are the same species do not see it as impossible for the same thing to take hold there. Will it take hold is certainly a different issue, but not impossible merely because of our evolution and part of that evolution is compassion.

I have no doubt if the Constitution was suddenly forsaken, the ban on monopolies it fosters, could very easily allow Christianity to backslide into the same tribal behavior it had prior to the age of Enlightenment.

I think you do a disservice on focusing on Islam as a label when you should simply focus on it as a current climate. If Christianity can grow out of it's attempts at facism, Islam can too. But they need both inside pressures and outside pressures to do it, just like it took blacks and women to stand up for their rights in spite of a bigoted sexist Christian majority.

Change Christianity took hundreds of years. The good thing about Islam is that it is changing in a much faster media and facism is scrutinized and challenged on a much easier scale now. I don't expect change over night, but I do think with effort it is possible to inject a Muslim Jefferson and a Muslim Age of Reason.

I think the alternitive of setting up taboos is not what the west should be doing. I think the only thing we can do is say "Look, protest all you want, all we ask is that you don't get violent".

I said before that I am under no ellusions that there is a garuntee that things will get better. But I can only point at the west and it's own internal struggles and tribal beefs and say, it did happen there. I'd like to at least make the attempt to set up future conditions that allow for free speech and non violent protest.

I want for Islam and the Middle East the same conditions I have here. I want them to live in a world where they don't have to fear their leaders, or even different sects of the same religion. I want them to feel free to criticise the west and Isreal. But that all depends on how they, even on a local level among themselves handle dissent. They wont get it using violence. Even withing the different sects of Islam, using violence only serves to divide them even more.

I cannot stress enough, that the asshole who made that video is an asshole and a bigot. But here in the states, as an atheist, I don't murder someone or call fo rthe murder of others, merely because they offend me. The worst any one will get from me, when they are just being assholes, but are not being violent is my voice in response.