A message to Islam

[Mystic]

The problem with extremist, is that they are the ones with the all the evidence in Islam.

In Islam, how to act is according to Quran and hadiths, and the latter take precedence over Quran, even though Quran is suppose to be the highest authority. The reason is because hadiths can abrogate Quran.

There is proof in the Sunnah to kill:

Apostates
Anyone whom insults the Messenger.

There is authentic hadiths for both of these.

The extremist are the ones with evidence in hadiths.

However I would say the modernist have support from Quran, the problem of course, is that per classical scholars, hadiths abrogate Quran.

That is why people whom do adultery are to be killed, while Quran says to lash them only.

It's also the case that extremist tend to be the knowledgeable of the Muslims.

It's sad to say, but I think Islam needs to be disproved, before you can get rid of extremism. This is because extremism is founded upon authentic hadiths.

[Reforged]

I agree that there has to be Muslims encouraging human rights and making a stand against extremism but at the same time Muslim extremists are quite violent and probably won't hesitate to kill someone they view to be guilty of heresy. You can see why there isn't a strong Muslim opposition to extremism when you take this into account.
How do you counter something like that which is so widely spread and has so few scruples?

There are pictures you can goggle on the net, of the dominance of the KKK and Christian bigotry and facism that had a grip on America, even after the Civil War had defeated slavery. There was a point when Christian bigotry had a majority of our country.

We constantly combat even in the west attempts to create fascist monopolies, even if they do not currently exist now. I look at the oppression minorities in America have over come and because we are the same species do not see it as impossible for the same thing to take hold there. Will it take hold is certainly a different issue, but not impossible merely because of our evolution and part of that evolution is compassion.

I have no doubt if the Constitution was suddenly forsaken, the ban on monopolies it fosters, could very easily allow Christianity to backslide into the same tribal behavior it had prior to the age of Enlightenment.

I think you do a disservice on focusing on Islam as a label when you should simply focus on it as a current climate. If Christianity can grow out of it's attempts at facism, Islam can too. But they need both inside pressures and outside pressures to do it, just like it took blacks and women to stand up for their rights in spite of a bigoted sexist Christian majority.

Change Christianity took hundreds of years. The good thing about Islam is that it is changing in a much faster media and facism is scrutinized and challenged on a much easier scale now. I don't expect change over night, but I do think with effort it is possible to inject a Muslim Jefferson and a Muslim Age of Reason.

I think the alternitive of setting up taboos is not what the west should be doing. I think the only thing we can do is say "Look, protest all you want, all we ask is that you don't get violent".

I said before that I am under no ellusions that there is a garuntee that things will get better. But I can only point at the west and it's own internal struggles and tribal beefs and say, it did happen there. I'd like to at least make the attempt to set up future conditions that allow for free speech and non violent protest.

I want for Islam and the Middle East the same conditions I have here. I want them to live in a world where they don't have to fear their leaders, or even different sects of the same religion. I want them to feel free to criticise the west and Isreal. But that all depends on how they, even on a local level among themselves handle dissent. They wont get it using violence. Even withing the different sects of Islam, using violence only serves to divide them even more.

I cannot stress enough, that the asshole who made that video is an asshole and a bigot. But here in the states, as an atheist, I don't murder someone or call fo rthe murder of others, merely because they offend me. The worst any one will get from me, when they are just being assholes, but are not being violent is my voice in response.

While that is somewhat true I don't think even in 1950s America it would acceptable to stone a pregnant woman to death. The KKK had more of a presence but they still had to operate behind closed doors to some extent. This definitely isn't the case in the middle-east. I think if you wanted to draw any kind of comparison you'd need to go back to inquisition times. If any progress is to be made with the situation in the middle east it will be a slow, bloody process that will doom many innocent lives to torture and to death simply for not agreeing with the extremists. If our history is anything to go by this process will likely last for afew hundred years. This isn't even taking into account the different factors that are involved in this situation that were not present during the times we were undergoing this type of transition.
I think change will come eventually but we can not say when or in what form. We can't really influence it that much, unfortunately. It is the evolution of a nation and that can not be rushed. The attempt would meet resistance and be seen by many as infringing.

[Brian37]

You are looking at one thing the west is better at (Freedom of speech), but don't look at faults at the other stuff the makes you like barbarians to the world.

Easy to praise one's own people, but condemn others.

Also, in the West, while you can insult everyone, be careful of course never to say anything against the Jews/Zionist, because you can lose your job, or if you question the holocaust in public, in some countries, you can be put in jail.

You know absolutly nothing about my history of posting. I will be the first to criticise Isreal when I think it is fucking up. And if someone wants to deny the Holcost to me that is just as absurd a conspiracy as UFOs or JFK. I agree that it should not be stopped, but most certainly, is a very dangerous conspiracy.

I have seen pleanty Isreal has done that pisses me off. I've seen stories of Palistinian and Isreali overlap that gets squahed by land grabs and walls built by Isreal.

HOWEVER between the two, the burdon is not on Isreal as much as it is on Palestine. I fully condemn rocket attacks and suicide bombers. I condemn the carpet bombing of Isreal as well.

But the only thing holding me back from supporting Palistine fully is what they would set up if given their own states. The freedom they gain would only extend to the majority. I do not see them at this point protecting the rights of minorities or the right to dissent. I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see that at this point.

I do not support Isreal like Christians do. They do it for religious reasons. They, like Isreal, want a Jewish state, I dont. To me that would be like claiming America is a Christian state or should be a Christian state. I will never support any Jewish state, but I will support a secular Isreal, much like I support "no religious test" in our Constitution. And I wont support Palistine becoming a Muslim state either.

So to me both have some support, but neither have my full support and I think both sides have tons to work on if either expects peace in our lifetimes.

All anyone of either stripe has to do is to live in America for a long period and they can see that it can be done. We have different sects of Christianity from left to right, and a Muslim and a Jew and an atheist in our Congress.

No one should be arrested for offending someone else. I do not support Isreal when they do that. But that does not mean I should abandon any individual of any side who values peace and non violence. There are pleanty of people on both sides, if it were not for their goverments or the climate, would value such.

So please spare me the victim crap. Both Jews and Muslims claim to be the victim, and as an outsider who has lived with blasphemy and a country that has protected offensive speech I can tell you both your supporters and theirs are NOT impressing me.

The virtue of the oppressed is bullshit. What you do and they do to me is no different than trying to say to an African American here, "Yea slavery was bad, but that was then and this is now, and the only thing I owe blacks is in the here and now.

I would advise you and your "enmey" when the reality is that we are all human, the shelf life of "he started it" gets old and at some point I really wish both sides would grow up and get tired of the violence. Then I think the things you object to and they object to would be in the minority rather than be divided by the majority, which it is now.

So instead of bitching about what they do, what is it you are doing to bridge that gap? When both sides do that, if they ever do, you'd both be better off.

[Rayaan]

So to any Muslim reading this, please respond and explain what you think your are gaining by supporting violent protest?

Just derision, basically. Nothing positive.

[greneknight]

The problem with extremist, is that they are the ones with the all the evidence in Islam.

In Islam, how to act is according to Quran and hadiths, and the latter take precedence over Quran, even though Quran is suppose to be the highest authority. The reason is because hadiths can abrogate Quran.

There is proof in the Sunnah to kill:

Apostates
Anyone whom insults the Messenger.

There is authentic hadiths for both of these.

The extremist are the ones with evidence in hadiths.

However I would say the modernist have support from Quran, the problem of course, is that per classical scholars, hadiths abrogate Quran.

That is why people whom do adultery are to be killed, while Quran says to lash them only.

It's also the case that extremist tend to be the knowledgeable of the Muslims.

It's sad to say, but I think Islam needs to be disproved, before you can get rid of extremism. This is because extremism is founded upon authentic hadiths.

Wow, this is great insight. Thanks for the post. You should be the best person to talk about this, seeing that you were a former Muslim. This post is highly educational.

[Brian37]

The problem with extremist, is that they are the ones with the all the evidence in Islam.

In Islam, how to act is according to Quran and hadiths, and the latter take precedence over Quran, even though Quran is suppose to be the highest authority. The reason is because hadiths can abrogate Quran.

There is proof in the Sunnah to kill:

Apostates
Anyone whom insults the Messenger.

There is authentic hadiths for both of these.

The extremist are the ones with evidence in hadiths.

However I would say the modernist have support from Quran, the problem of course, is that per classical scholars, hadiths abrogate Quran.

That is why people whom do adultery are to be killed, while Quran says to lash them only.

It's also the case that extremist tend to be the knowledgeable of the Muslims.

It's sad to say, but I think Islam needs to be disproved, before you can get rid of extremism. This is because extremism is founded upon authentic hadiths.

I don't deny those words are there. But there was a time when Christians took their book as litterally. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" The victims of Europe and Salem Mass, could attest to being too litteral, if they were allive today.

"Think not I bring peace, I bring not peace, but a sword"

"Vengance is mine sayith the lord".

Time is why Christians are civil, combined with wise men who insisted that, while you cant stop people from saying stupid shit, you can get them to agree to being non violent and agree to common law.

The Middle East will not rid itself of Muslims anymore than the west will be rid of Christianity. But both have the underpinnings of gangs and Mafia. And only common law in the west has put a leash on Christianity. But there was a time when it was as barbaric as Islam. And even during our history it has been unkind to brutal levels to blacks and women and Native Americans and gays.

The Abrahamic god of all three demands the loyalty of his minions and outsiders at best, when watered down by the west, are seen as pets. But the common belief when all these cults were started was no mercy to the outsider.

Even in the New testement, we hear claims of kindness to the meek and the criminal, but you can also find quotes where you abandon your own family, and quotes where the only way to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus.

As long as god claims are terms of absolutes, and as long as people fight for them, blood will be more bountiful than the water of all the oceans. The bane of superstition is the shackle of humanity.

[Mystic]

The movement to go back to the roots of following authentic hadiths is growing stronger though. And even if majority are not moving that way, there will always be extremist whom will follow authentic hadiths regardless of how unmoral they maybe.

[Brian37]

So? What are the right wingers and Tea Partiers trying to do in America. They are trying to make woman's vaginas Jesus owned. That does not mean long term they will win. If you look at the history of America, it was slow and painfull, but it always moved foward and took steps back.

Muslims are not a sub species. They merely are stuck in the past. I cant resonably expect all 7 billion people to give up on god claims. But there was a time when we as a collective species lived in caves and didn't even have written language.

There are cracks in there religion. Neda in Iran. The Muslim outcry of Muslim women in Morroco when a judge sentanced a girl to marry her rapist, and the girl commited suicide. Saudi Arabia is on the cusp of allowing women to vote.

Time and the voice of progress is tested and has brought us medicine and computers and the internet, which cannot worldwide, stop the message of our common existence,. even if some governments try. The people that escape the oppresion we in the west don't have to deal with, still communicate with those they leave behind. And the hubris of those nations still stuck in the past, desperatly try to keep up with technology, but open the rest of the world to them, exposing their oppression.

For the dictator it is a losing battle. They cannot give their country communication without their citizens learning that humans, as individuals, don't hate individuals, even if we don't like their government.

[zappa1258]

You are talking abut a movie first that killed people. The extremest look for a reason to kill the western person. The whole thing was retarded and I find the Muslims that did this disgusting filled with hate and murder in their hearts. It was just a excuse to do the things they did.

[Brian37]

I don't get it? How exactly did a dickhead with no weapons kill people? Was the film laced with Anthrax? Did he have a deal with video technology that by mere watching would make you go on a killing spree?

He was a fuckwad and a bigot, but merely pissing people off should not get you killed, especially people who were not the persons who started it.