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'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
#21
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
Time-travellers can have all the time in the world. He's been a busy little devil, I'll give him that.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#22
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
(September 24, 2012 at 7:39 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm disappointed too. Internet xtians seem to be an umimaginative breed. I've been loking forward to the Justin Martyr "diabolical mimicry" defence; the Devil time-travelled and pre-emptively set up 'pagan' religions to confuse everyone but the True Faithful™.

Come on, xtians - put a bit of effort into the game.

Seen it. As I recall, it boils down to "You're taking his words out of context. He really meant..." (obtuse interpretations ensue)

See also their defense of indefensible Biblical passages for other examples of this line of reasoning.

"Ah, well, when Moses told his people to 'take the virgin girls for themselves', he didn't mean as sex slaves. He meant to raise them in their homes along the righteous path or perhaps to employ them as servants and..."
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#23
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
"He was born out of a solid rock and not from any woman."

Upon further research.....

Quote:December 25th was Mithras's particular festival, when the advent of the new light and the god's birth were celebrated. This birth was in the nature of a miracle, the young Mithras being forced out of a rock as if by some hidden magic power.


Hm.

Quote:"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."-Gerald Berry, Religions of the World



Quote:He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb...."

Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth


Quote:The god is found as "Mitra" in the Indian Vedic religion, which is over 3,500 years old


Quote:The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise. The celebration of this cycle of death and renewal was one of the major festivals of the metroac cult. Attis therefore represented a promise of reborn life and as such it is not surprising that we find representations of the so-called mourning Attis as a common tomb motif in the ancient world.

The parallel, albeit at a superficial level, between this myth and the account of the resurrection of Christ is clear. Moreover Attis as a shepherd occupies a favourite Christian image of Christ as the good shepherd. Further parallels also seem to have existed: the pine tree of Attis, for example, was seen as a parallel to the cross of Christ.

Beyond Attis himself, Cybele too offered a challenge to Christian divine nomenclature. Cybele was regarded as a virgin goddess and as such could be seen as a rival to the Virgin Mary... Cybele as the mother of the Gods, mater Deum, here again presented a starkly pagan parallel to the Christian Mother of God.

There was rivalry too in ritual. The climax of the celebration of Attis' resurrection, the Hilaria, fell on the 25th of March, the date that the early church had settled on as the day of Christ's death.... (Lane, 39-40)

Quote:Jacolliot's description includes a number of arrows, instead of just one, which, along with the suspension in the tree branches, resembles the pinning of the god to a tree using multiple nails. Krishna's subsequent disappearance has been considered an ascension. Moreover, this legend is evidently but a variant of the orthodox tale, constituting an apparently esoteric tradition recognizing Krishna's death as a crucifixion. Indeed, as John Remsburg says in The Christ:

There is a tradition, though not to be found in the Hindoo scriptures, that Krishna, like Christ, was crucified.


Quote:Moreover, it appears that Krishna is not the first Indian god depicted as crucified. Prior to him was another incarnation of Vishnu, the avatar named Wittoba or Vithoba, who has often been identified with Krishna. As Doane further relates:

It is evident that to be hung on a cross was anciently called hanging on a tree, and to be hung on a tree was called crucifixion. We may therefore conclude from this, and from what we shall now see, that Crishna was said to have been crucified.

In the earlier copies of Moor's Hindu Pantheon , is to be seen representations of Crishna (as Wittoba ), with marks of holes in both feet, and in others, of holes in the hands. In Figures 4 and 5 of Plate 11 (Moor's work), the figures have nail-holes in both feet . Plate 6 has a round hole in the side ; to his collar or shirt hangs the emblem of a heart (which we often see in pictures of Christ Jesus)

Rev. J. P. Lundy, speaking of the Christian crucifix, says:

I object to the crucifix because it is an image, and liable to gross abuse, just as the old Hindoo crucifix was an idol.

And Dr. Inman says:

Crishna, whose history so closely resembles our Lord's, was also like him in his being crucified.


That's not even all of it.
[Image: Mv4GC.png]
The true beauty of a self-inquiring sentient universe is lost on those who elect to walk the intellectually vacuous path of comfortable paranoid fantasies.
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#24
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
So does the above post get the honor of an edit for copy and pasting his response? or is it just the "for God" side of the arguement?
(Who leaves links to the artical that was quoted.)
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#25
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
(September 24, 2012 at 9:40 pm)Drich Wrote: So does the above post get the honor of an edit for copy and pasting his response? or is it just the "for God" side of the arguement?
(Who leaves links to the artical that was quoted.)

Good response, you twat. Come back when you actually want to try to refute that and not waste my time.

You might also notice I posted relevant fragments of an article and not one entire article. Like you.
[Image: Mv4GC.png]
The true beauty of a self-inquiring sentient universe is lost on those who elect to walk the intellectually vacuous path of comfortable paranoid fantasies.
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#26
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
Thanks for your insightful post Undeceived.

(September 24, 2012 at 12:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Mithraism vaguely has its roots in Persia, but no descriptive writings show up until after Christ:
http://www.religionfacts.com/greco-roman...hraism.htm
Quote:The origins of Mithraism as a Roman cult are not fully understood. It clearly derives from ancient Persia in some way, but scholars are divided on whether the Roman cult is a westernized Persian religion or an essentially western religion with Persian trimmings.
The time period in which Mithraism flourished is better known, thanks to the archaeological evidence. The cult of Mithras appears suddenly in the 2nd century AD - hundreds of inscriptions begin appearing after 136 AD. It then died out with the rest of Greco-Roman paganism after the conversion of Constantine in the 4th century.

I think it possibly derived from Zoroastrianism. I think it's stretching the truth to say it 'suddenly appears in the 2nd century' because we have people like Plutarch commenting on the cult as early as 66 A.D.

Quote:According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica,
Quote:The most plausible hypothesis seems to be that Roman Mithraism was practically a new creation, wrought by a religious genius who may have lived as late as c. AD 100 and who gave the old traditional Persian ceremonies a new Platonic interpretation that enabled Mithraism to become acceptable to the Roman world.

Again, Plutarch debunks that in a matter of seconds. How does a 'religious genius' make up a religion that Plutarch mentioned 40 years before him already?
Quote:A commentary:
Quote: (2) Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. Tertullian about 200 could say: "hesterni sumus et omnia vestra implevimus" ("we are but of yesterday, yet your whole world is full of us"). It is not unnatural to suppose that a religion which filled the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular during the third century. Moreover the resemblances pointed out are superficial and external. Similarity in words and names is nothing; it is the sense that matters. During these centuries Christianity was coining its own technical terms, and naturally took names, terms, and expressions current in that day; and so did Mithraism. But under identical terms each system thought its own thoughts. Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ; but Mithra originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense; Christ, being God and man, is by nature the Mediator between God and man. And so in similar instances. Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river. Much as been made of the presence of adoring shepherds; but their existence on sculptures has not been proven, and considering that man had not yet appeared, it is an anachronism to suppose their presence.
In short, these “similarities” appeared right about when Christianity itself was gaining traction. With no concrete events to back them up, it seems to be an attempt to make Mithraism more appealing to the Roman world, riding on the popularity of Christianity.

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. Christianity wasn't popular at all in the beginning, we all know that. Mithraism was definitely around in the 1st century which was at the same time as Christianity when it wasn't popular. Ideas like a sacrifice rewarding humanity with eternity were already in place in Mithraism because that's been the central teaching all along as Mithraeums (the caves they worshipped in, just like early Christians) show us through the statues of Mithra slaying the bull.

As for the commentary, it's not very convincing because it's clearly a biased Christian apology rather than an historical insight. Saying things like:

Quote:Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified.

and attempting to alienate the two ideas is clearly biased. The fact is that both are "saviour god" religions. If this person can dismiss the Eucharist similarity as being trivial because 'the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples' then the same goes for the way in which mankind was redeemed. This era was obsessed with this idea so what's so special about any of these acts?

Quote:Horus has his birth in a book written by English poet Gerald Massey. Practically nothing is known of the ancient Horus but, like Dan Brown, this fiction writer has managed to spread his lies to anyone who will believe them:
http://stupidevilbastard.com/2005/01/end..._of_horus/

....

Quote:The Books of the Dead from the Saite period tend to organize the Chapters into four sections:
Chapters 1–16 The deceased enters the tomb, descends to the underworld, and the body regains its powers of movement and speech.
Chapters 17–63 Explanation of the mythic origin of the gods and places, the deceased are made to live again so that they may arise, reborn, with the morning sun.
Chapters 64–129 The deceased travels across the sky in the sun ark as one of the blessed dead. In the evening, the deceased travels to the underworld to appear before Osiris.
Chapters 130–189 Having been vindicated, the deceased assumes power in the universe as one of the gods. This section also includes assorted chapters on protective amulets, provision of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead

My university has a 3-volume copy of one of these books. It's all in Egyptian hieroglyphics though so I can't quite read it Wink. Either way, I don't think we can attribute the stories to anyone but the Egyptians though. These traditions have been written all over their monuments and later into the Book of the Dead. It seems like you should know this anyways, as your source says:

Quote:He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation. The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Quote:Heracles’ “similarities” are incidental and few. Their births are polar opposites—God never came in contact with Mary, while Heracles ermerged out of rape. Both had earthly fathers, but so did a hundred other half-bloods in Greek mythology. Heracles is nothing special. He is a plot device to link the gods to the people. Jesus was man for a purpose—he had to be human to save mankind from their sin. The rest of the similarities aren’t too impressive. Heracles being a hero, toying with death, being betrayed—these are all human themes.
It’s highly doubtful that Jews use a pagan religion for ideas, and even less likely for them to believe it. In the end, they believed because of all the prophecies fulfilled by Christ—prophecies written before Heracles and other challenging legends.

There's similarities nonetheless.

It's funny you portray as Jews not easily believing other religions because the same goes for Jesus. There's still Jews around today, which shows you they're sceptical of the supposed prophecies that were fulfilled.

Quote:
(September 24, 2012 at 12:58 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I have made numerous threads on this topic showing where various details about Jesus' life came from in the OT.
They should complement each other. That does not mean one came from the other. Rather, the fact one fulfills the other shows how diligent the authors would have had to have been in order to fabricate the NT. Other Holy Books don’t bother with fulfilled prophecies—the Quran has zero apart from self-fulfilled predictions like Muhammad promising to return to Mecca. Christ fulfills at least 351.
[/quote]
I'll repeat again: every similarity between OT and NT I've shown has to do with trivial events in Jesus' life, like walking up to a fig tree that's out of season. That scene comes straight from Hosea 9. So of course Jesus will eventually 'fulfil' x amount of prophecies as well, because if you're copy + pasting from the OT to make up his life why not also make him fulfil whatever you want?

On a side note, some of these 'prophecies fulfilled' don't actually even make sense. I can't remember exactly where in Matthew it is, but I think it talks about Jesus being born but if you read the 'prophecy' it's referring to in the OT it actually has nothing to do with a messiah. I remember it says something about Israel being the son..? I can't quite remember it right now.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#27
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
(September 24, 2012 at 9:40 pm)Drich Wrote: So does the above post get the honor of an edit for copy and pasting his response? or is it just the "for God" side of the arguement?
(Who leaves links to the artical that was quoted.)

What do you not understand about do not quote the entire article? Copying and pasting is okay as long as it's not a majority of the article.

And no, you did not leave a link to the article quoted. You simply left the address to the home page of the site where your article was found. I personally went in and found the exact link and added it in for you. That is something I didn't have to do, and I would have been fully within my rights to have completely deleted your post without consideration.

@System of Solace, please cite all of your sources in the future.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#28
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
I'm not studied enough to be able to speak to all of the OP, but the concept of resurrection seems to be to be original to the Christian movement.

I wrote about it here (it's not long and the sources are at the bottom).

http://morethanmorality.blogspot.com/201...n.html?m=1
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#29
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
(September 25, 2012 at 3:22 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I'm not studied enough to be able to speak to all of the OP, but the concept of resurrection seems to be to be original to the Christian movement.

I wrote about it here (it's not long and the sources are at the bottom).

http://morethanmorality.blogspot.com/201...n.html?m=1

From that blog entry, at the end:
Quote:Only the resurrection of Jesus would have so changed them and convinced them that Jesus was in fact Messiah. Only an appearance from Jesus who had conquered death could take these cowards and change them to so boldly and fearlessly proclaim that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and had risen from the grave. Only an appearance of the risen Messiah would have prompted these men to be willing to die for the belief that Jesus had risen from the dead.

Men are willing to die for what they believe in, but no one dies for what they know to be a lie. These men were willing to die proclaiming Jesus has risen!

There are two significant problems with the logic of this apology:

1. You're using folklore to prove mythology.
2. You falsely proclaim that nobody dies for what they should know is a lie. We have plenty of examples.

On the first point, your argument is built on the assumption that the story of the disciples and apostles is completely reliable. If this were so, we we not require this argument because the very same story tells us of the resurrection. If the story were reliable historical documentation, what do we need this argument for? If the story is not reliable as historical documentation, where does our information about the disciples and apostles come from?

You need to prove that not only did these apostles and disciples exist but that they were arrested and executed for their beliefs AND that they refused to recant these beliefs even when offered their freedom for doing so. You can't simply cite the story and spuriously beg the question by saying the story says-so and therefore the story is true.

When pressed for evidence for Roman persecution of the early church, one of the documents offered is Pliny's letter to Trajan. However, this letter documents that these Christians were willing to curse Christ and hail the emperor. I've not seen any independent corroboration that the early disciples were not only persecuted for their beliefs but refused to recant for their freedom, instead holding their heads high as they went to their execution, yatta yatta, insert Hollywood imagery and swelling soundtrack audio here.

On the second point, even if you could claim that Christians died for their beliefs, it is special pleading to suggest this fanaticism proves anything.

In the modern age, we have plenty of examples of crazy cultists and their leaders dying for silly beliefs that no sane person should ever consider. Jim Jones, David Koresh and the Hale Bopp cult (Heaven's Gate) are all grim examples of the tragedy of religious fanaticism. The human mind is reluctant to admit error, especially where cherished beliefs are concerned, and will rationalize away even the most profound evidence against it. Ask any ex-Christian and they'll tell you the transition away from faith was slow, gradual and full of back-and-forth.

"Oh no," Christians will say, "These cultists don't count. They were crazy."

The fact is many people would literally rather die than admit they were wrong about their most sacred beliefs. This is not only believable, it is to be expected for most people.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#30
RE: 'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...
First I'd like to say, great points!


(September 25, 2012 at 3:45 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: On the first point, your argument is built on the assumption that the story of the disciples and apostles is completely reliable. If this were so, we we not require this argument because the very same story tells us of the resurrection. If the story were reliable historical documentation, what do we need this argument for?

I'm not taking the bible as authoritative or completely reliable so each "narrative nugget" would need to be accessed for validity.

Some of you probably know more than I on the topic, but it is my understanding that the martyrdom of the disciple James is attested to by Josephus and Peter and John's deaths by Tertullian and Irenaeus.


(September 25, 2012 at 3:45 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Jim Jones, David Koresh and the Hale Bopp cult (Heaven's Gate) are all grim examples of the tragedy of religious fanaticism.

It seems to me that these people really did believe what they were selling though. I'm saying that no one is willing to die for a fabrication that they are fully aware of it's untruth.

The "crazies" we see die really do believe that they are dying for their beliefs....not lies.
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