'The Truth' Sounds Too Familiar...

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

I'm not studied enough to be able to speak to all of the OP, but the concept of resurrection seems to be to be original to the Christian movement.

I wrote about it here (it's not long and the sources are at the bottom).

http://morethanmorality.blogspot.com/201...n.html?m=1

Jeff, I was once like you. I had read books by Craig, Habermas (I met him personally), Licona, Holding, and other apologists, and was convinced of the resurrection for a while because of their arguments.

Do yourself a favor and be more objective. Get out of the apologists echo chamber. Try actually reading books written by secular scholars instead of the straw men made up by the apologists.

There are many books I'd recommend but probably the best to start off with would be Richard Carrier's "Not the Impossible Faith" (you can find as an ebook fairly cheap). He's a PHD historian and spends about 600 pages explaining how Christianity could have easily arisen without a supernatural causes. His arguments also assume that Jesus existed so it doesn't rely on anything controversial.

Or start off with these free articles here (these articles are what got me off the apologist band wagon) http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/t...ction.html

[DeistPaladin]

First I'd like to say, great points!

Thank you.

Some of you probably know more than I on the topic, but it is my understanding that the martyrdom of the disciple James is attested to by Josephus and Peter and John's deaths by Tertullian and Irenaeus.

Any confirmation of the folklore that comes to us from noted priests of the early Christian church should be taken with a grain of salt. Josephus would be a more dependable source considering he was not a Christian. How much of the folklore does he confirm?

It seems to me that these people really did believe what they were selling though. I'm saying that no one is willing to die for a fabrication that they are fully aware of it's untruth.

The "crazies" we see die really do believe that they are dying for their beliefs....not lies.

Jim Jones, David Koresh and the Hale Bopp cult all featured not just brainwashed and deceived followers dying for what they believed but the cult leaders themselves also partaking in the Kool Aid. And these are examples of modern day cults, surely a less superstitious time than what we would find 2000 years ago in a land chaffing under the yoke of Roman oppression, with a people desperately looking to any sign from above that Yahweh had not forgotten his pledge to his promised people, the oath to King David that his seed would rule for all time.

At this intersection of political ideology, religious belief and desperation of a people, the stage is set for what we might call crazy fanaticism. If such suicidal cults can crop up today, why not then? Why is it impossible that such conditions produced a people convinced that Jesus had risen from the dead even if he had not?

How long was Elvis in the ground before there were so many sightings of him? And followers of Elvis were not nearly so desperate to see a sign from above as the ancient Jews suffering under Roman rule surely were. If music could inspire such delusion, why not a combination of nationalistic pride, desperation and religious fervor?

Is it possible that the followers of Jesus could have been convinced he rose again even if he had not? Absolutely. We've seen such irrationality time and time again even in the modern age. Why not in a more primitive, superstitious and desperate time?

And none of this is to touch the very real part of human nature that so many people would literally rather die to save face rather than utter three dreaded words: "I was wrong". Stubborn pride in clinging to beliefs we regard as sacred lead us to rationalize away even the most profound of evidence and take solace in some of the most ridiculously flimsy of "proofs".

Your Jesus once said "pride goeth before a fall." On that point, he and I agree.