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Jews don't get a pass "just because"
#11
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 27, 2012 at 3:49 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:He went on to quote the 3,000 year history of Jews and used that same lame excuse of tradition and "we were here first"


And if an Apache knocked on my door and said he used to live here I'd laugh in his face and call the cops to lock the nut up. The Romans threw the Jews out of Palestine in 135 AD.

What happened is that the UN stole Palestine and gave it to the Jews. Probably in the hope of getting them out of Europe.

Actually the Jews conquered what is now Israel, the ceasefire line in 1949 was not the same as the boundaries in the UN partition plan of 1947.

If it had not been for the ceasefire, the Jews would have taken the West Bank and Gaza, along with what is now Israel. Also there would have not been any doubt that a lot of the Arab population would have fled for neighboring countries as a result.
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#12
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
A piece of sand, and two sides, semites to the core, fight eachother for it. Both sides have good arguments for themselves.
Jews were the original inhabitants of the area long before the arabs came along. Similarly, arabs have been inhabiting the area for longer than thousand years.
Considering this, both jews and arabs have the right to call the land "their own". Just as the greeks have sent an army to claim western Anatolia from us, but failed, the jews have tried to claim Palestine from the arabs and succeeded.

If there are two parties who are right, the only way to settle things is war.
And that is what we have in Palestine right now. The arabs will not rest until they have driven out the jews out of Jerusalem, while the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands.
As I said, only war can settle things, and peace is impossible.

To the OP. It certainly does not matter if both sides were secular to the core-jews are an ethnic group of their own right, and their ethnic consciousness is in deep relation with their religious identity, while arabs, even though having different religious groups amongst themselves, are also quite nationalistic, and no one would like to see invaders in a place where they constitute a majority, yes?

Religion has very little to do with it.

(September 28, 2012 at 8:12 am)Justtristo Wrote:
(September 27, 2012 at 3:49 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And if an Apache knocked on my door and said he used to live here I'd laugh in his face and call the cops to lock the nut up. The Romans threw the Jews out of Palestine in 135 AD.

What happened is that the UN stole Palestine and gave it to the Jews. Probably in the hope of getting them out of Europe.

Actually the Jews conquered what is now Israel, the ceasefire line in 1949 was not the same as the boundaries in the UN partition plan of 1947.

If it had not been for the ceasefire, the Jews would have taken the West Bank and Gaza, along with what is now Israel. Also there would have not been any doubt that a lot of the Arab population would have fled for neighboring countries as a result.

The arabs could certainly wipe out Israel if they wanted to-5 million jews, surrounded by an arab sea...Jews are not a nation of conquerors, nor a nation that has ruled over others for millenia. They have lived under the wings of others for so long, they cannot hold off the arabs for any longer, if the arabs were to unite. Even if the arab would spit at the jew in Israel, they would drown. But the only good thing is, that the jews only have to fight specific groups of arabs, and they are already quite downtrodden and primitve. But groups like Hamas-if they would actually spark a nationwide arab awakening, would lead to the destruction of Israel. And I believe that Israel will be eradicated off the maps sooner or later, but what will follow afterwards, nobody knows.
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#13
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 29, 2012 at 11:22 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: .....<Snipped>
And that is what we have in Palestine right now. The arabs will not rest until they have driven out the jews out of Jerusalem, while the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands.
As I said, only war can settle things, and peace is impossible.

To the OP. It certainly does not matter if both sides were secular to the core-jews are an ethnic group of their own right, and their ethnic consciousness is in deep relation with their religious identity, while arabs, even though having different religious groups amongst themselves, are also quite nationalistic, and no one would like to see invaders in a place where they constitute a majority, yes?

Religion has very little to do with it.
<Snipped>....
How can you say religion has very little to do with it when "the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands". I thought the promised lands story was part of their religion.
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#14
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 29, 2012 at 9:42 pm)Waratah Wrote:
(September 29, 2012 at 11:22 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: .....<Snipped>
And that is what we have in Palestine right now. The arabs will not rest until they have driven out the jews out of Jerusalem, while the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands.
As I said, only war can settle things, and peace is impossible.

To the OP. It certainly does not matter if both sides were secular to the core-jews are an ethnic group of their own right, and their ethnic consciousness is in deep relation with their religious identity, while arabs, even though having different religious groups amongst themselves, are also quite nationalistic, and no one would like to see invaders in a place where they constitute a majority, yes?

Religion has very little to do with it.
<Snipped>....
How can you say religion has very little to do with it when "the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands". I thought the promised lands story was part of their religion.
It has very much become a national goal: do you really think that Theodor Herzl, the founder of zionism, was the best jew around?
He even opposed the "chosen people" type of superiority claims, even though he had in his mind the boundaries of the Torah. This is due to the fact that there is no other source that describes the Jewish homelands better in detail.
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#15
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 29, 2012 at 9:42 pm)Waratah Wrote:
(September 29, 2012 at 11:22 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: .....<Snipped>
And that is what we have in Palestine right now. The arabs will not rest until they have driven out the jews out of Jerusalem, while the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands.
As I said, only war can settle things, and peace is impossible.

To the OP. It certainly does not matter if both sides were secular to the core-jews are an ethnic group of their own right, and their ethnic consciousness is in deep relation with their religious identity, while arabs, even though having different religious groups amongst themselves, are also quite nationalistic, and no one would like to see invaders in a place where they constitute a majority, yes?

Religion has very little to do with it.
<Snipped>....
How can you say religion has very little to do with it when "the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands". I thought the promised lands story was part of their religion.
That is the denial I hate about the politics of both sides. It is utter bullshit after I listented to their PM pontificate about the history of Jews and quote the names of OT characters and then have some lie and say it is not about religion.

Again, it is not an expectiation for any human on either side to leave. That is just impractical and wont happen. That would be like me quoting our secular law and expecing Christians to leave America.

But for any Jew or Muslim to say it is only about boarders and politics is utter fucking bullshit. I am under no illusions to expect religion to go away, just stop fucking lying about why you are "standing your ground".

It is a very pragmatic challenge as to why I say that. Because once you adimit your intent, it is very easy to see what Jefferson ment by his "wall" between church and state and why it is important to the civility of pluralism in any given governance.

It isn't a demand that tradition go away, just that a govenment cannot nor should, if it claims to value pluralism, play favorites or give special pleading to one religion over another.

It is a lie to me if any Muslim who supports Palistine says they wont set up a Muslim state. And it is a lie to say that a Jewish state will be neutral as far a governance. To whatever degree both would be setting up pecking orders.

I will only be for both sides setting up NEUTRAL secular states where freedom of religion and political and religious minorities are protected and have the equal opportunity at political office as the majority.

In the United States there is no quota system for government office. One still has to compete to convince others to vote for them. But there is no political or religious requirement to apply for the paper work to make the attempt to get votes.

I do not see either side long term looking for a neutral pluralistic government. Isreal is more westernized, but still has a theistic attitude like some Christians in America have about non Chrisitians in that we are welcome here but this is a "Christian Nation".

Pluralistic governments should not advocate religious theme parks as being the nation. It should simply be neutral on the issue and protect the rights of all.
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#16
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 30, 2012 at 5:10 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:
(September 29, 2012 at 9:42 pm)Waratah Wrote: How can you say religion has very little to do with it when "the jews will stop at nothing to re-claim their promised lands". I thought the promised lands story was part of their religion.
It has very much become a national goal: do you really think that Theodor Herzl, the founder of zionism, was the best jew around?
He even opposed the "chosen people" type of superiority claims, even though he had in his mind the boundaries of the Torah. This is due to the fact that there is no other source that describes the Jewish homelands better in detail.
I do not know whether Theodor Herzl was the best jew around at the time, but he was not the founder of zionism. I also do not see how what you have written supports your claim that it has very little to do with religion.
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#17
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 30, 2012 at 7:43 am)Waratah Wrote:
(September 30, 2012 at 5:10 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: It has very much become a national goal: do you really think that Theodor Herzl, the founder of zionism, was the best jew around?
He even opposed the "chosen people" type of superiority claims, even though he had in his mind the boundaries of the Torah. This is due to the fact that there is no other source that describes the Jewish homelands better in detail.
I do not know whether Theodor Herzl was the best jew around at the time, but he was not the founder of zionism. I also do not see how what you have written supports your claim that it has very little to do with religion.

He was the founder of zionism. Zionists of today look back to him for guidance in terms of ideological matters.

The founders of Israel were largely secular people. Their reason to look back to the Torah for guidance was that the Jewish national identity was interwoven with the religious Jewish identity. Even the most secular Jewish nationalist of today looks into the future, and dreams of the conquest and subjugation of the "promised lands" in the Torah. Why else would these people leave their lands, homes and everything else behind, come to Israel, and learn to speak hebrew?
The jews that constitute today's Israel have traditionally spoken many hybrid languages, such as yiddish, ladino, judeo-tat, arabic and etc.
Now, they have formed a true nation, with a single language, and single identity, and it was formed on the basis of the Torah, a book that the Jews look back to when asking themselves "who or what is a jew?".
Todays jews are an ethnic identity. They are all descendants of the same semites that have been evicted from Judea by the Romans.
To confirm this, they look back to what religion those Jews had. And today's jews share the same religion, even if they don't believe in it. Still, ethnicity, and the consciousness relating to it still remains.

Mind you, the only jews who oppose Israel are the really hardcore, orthodox Jews.

Quote:It is a lie to me if any Muslim who supports Palistine says they wont set up a Muslim state. And it is a lie to say that a Jewish state will be neutral as far a governance. To whatever degree both would be setting up pecking orders.
But the motivation behind the support is more important than anything, friend.
I can't say the same for a muslim arab, however, for muslim arabs could, and probably do support Palestine with more nationalistic intents, rather than a religious one. But non-arab muslims do this due to extensive religious fanboyism. For example neither me, nor any friends of mine support Palestine, however we do not support the opposing party either.
We see this as an ethnic matter that does not concern us.
Besides, what have the arabs, or palestinian arabs done for religious unity? Nothing. They even have christians amongst them, who are just as patriotic and nationalistic as the muslim arabs on he issue of Palestine.
Quote:It isn't a demand that tradition go away, just that a govenment cannot nor should, if it claims to value pluralism, play favorites or give special pleading to one religion over another.
It's not a matter of religion, friend. Did you know that there are very patriotic muslim Israelis? They are muslim, but they are not arabs, but circassians, brought there during the days of the Turks, as conscripts, and stayed there. They do not support the arabs, even though they are co-religionists.
Israel is very neutral in that regard. But all I'm saying is this. There are no religious tensions there. Only ethnic ones.
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#18
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
Quote:Jews were the original inhabitants of the area long before the arabs came along

No they were not, anymore Europeans were the first to "discover" America.

Trace back our species evolution far enough and there are always humans pior. "I was here first" is bullshit for any political or religious label to claim. We never ceased to be part of the same evolution and our species is much deeper rooted in DNA than our invented social clubs.

The Canaanites were around that same region prior along with all the polytheism of other cultures. And there were prior humans to the written tradition as well. Our DNA tracking is showing that ultimately our species originated in Africa.
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#19
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
My people say they're "chosen" - I don't understand why they can't be chosen somewhere that has fucking trees. That's all I'm going to say about it.
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#20
RE: Jews don't get a pass "just because"
(September 30, 2012 at 4:33 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
Quote:Jews were the original inhabitants of the area long before the arabs came along

No they were not, anymore Europeans were the first to "discover" America.

Trace back our species evolution far enough and there are always humans pior. "I was here first" is bullshit for any political or religious label to claim. We never ceased to be part of the same evolution and our species is much deeper rooted in DNA than our invented social clubs.

The Canaanites were around that same region prior along with all the polytheism of other cultures. And there were prior humans to the written tradition as well. Our DNA tracking is showing that ultimately our species originated in Africa.
Who gives a hell's ass about the Canaanites? Are they still around? I believe not. But Jews still are. And they have historical claims on these lands. And today, they have the guns to back these claims up.
A century ago, the Greeks of today's Greece, came with an army into our lands to re-claim their historical lands in Anatolia and Thrace.
They were beaten back, but do you really think they've given up? No, as long as the sun shines, and the moon rises above the sky, the Greeks will still look for an opportunity to kick us out, and declare their lordship over these lands. And as long as we exist, we will fight them for it.
It's the natural law of the world to re-claim lands that you once held legitimate claims on.

The fact that we have the same DNA, and are of the same species doesn't change the fact that we are of different tribes. Even in nature, there are tribes of the same species who fight eachother for territory. We are different from them that we also have distinctive languages and cultures to further supplement our blood relations.
Indeed, a tribe needs a place to live and thrive on.
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