Faith healing couple acquitted of manslaughter charges! How can this happen?

[bozo]

Hey,
Rhizo, that is very much what I mean. Prayer, in it's good form, is a meditation, a tool for centering oneself. I appreciate your bible quotes, but I don't treat the bible as divinely inspired, so I don't take my definition of prayer from that religion. As always, I had to retort with someone for saying that prayer has no positive value. That is my only disagreement. Prayer can have no power for you, but you cannot make the claim that it has no power for anyone.

Bozo, why am I a fool? I tried to make a very clear point. I think it is foolish to claim prayer has no positive qualities. When it comes to prayer, you are not a fool? You are an atheist, I think if one of us is not understanding prayer, it might be you.

It's about controlling what you can, and not controlling what you can not.
It's having someone to talk too.

pippy, you asked the question and I answered yes. Praying is foolish and also dangerous. The fact that in all probability nothing is listening seals it for me. Dawkins reports in TGD about the Templeton attempt at proving that prayer works...it didn't!

[leo-rcc]

Actually, the Templeton Foundation only funded the research, they did not do the research themselves. And the results were published without the TF interfering in any way.

[Pippy]

To Karatepig, Are you listening to me? I have made no comment on the baby's death, I was and am only addressing the statement that prayer has no positive value. I disagree with that statement. I have not made any comment or opinion about he baby, but I don't think prayer killed the baby. The disease did, negligence may have, but he prayer did no killing.
To Bozo,

Praying is foolish and also dangerous.

In your opinion. In mine it can be foolish and dangerous or healthy and helpful. Only humans can make inanimate tools good or bad.

The fact that in all probability nothing is listening seals it for me.

Whether or not something is listening is beside the point, as I have shown. That nothing may be listening to your prayers does not make them useless. You are misunderstanding the nature of prayer.

Dawkins reports in TGD about the Templeton attempt at proving that prayer works...it didn't!

Was that the effect on random number generators? That would be (like other tests he does) flawed from the start. Prayer doesn't work at affecting random numbers, because that is not what prayers function is at all. That is not what prayer is supposed to do. So the fact that dawkins 'proved' it didn't do that (or whatever he 'proved') means he also misunderstood the definition and proper use of prayer.

As a personal tool for attempting to have more control (when necessary) and less control (when necessary) over you state-of-mind, prayer is quite valid. All your guys arguments so far have shown that you don't understand, not that you have disproven or proven anything.

Thank you for you time,
-Pip

[Eilonnwy]

Pippy, the Templeton foundation is a religious organization. THEY funded the study to try and prove prayer DID work, and fortunately enough when it found no effect they still posted the results. Dawkins only reported the result.

http://www.dimaggio.org/Eye-Openers/pray...t_work.htm

If you believe that prayer works as a meditation tool, I'll give you that. If you're saying a intercessory prayer actually works, and god affects the outcome, then absolutely not.

[chatpilot]

Pippy I disagree with you regarding prayer having positive effects since prayer as practiced by most christians is nothing more than a delusion.When a man talks to himself on the street he is called crazy or schizophrenic but when he talks to an imaginary guy in the sky then he is praying.Now that is a double standard if I have ever seen one.Also,most people that pray be it a christian or a muslim are believing that there is an invisible man in the sky that is attentive to their prayers.Hence in conclusion the only effect that prayer has for anyone is to make that person live a lie and believe in a delusion.

[Rhizomorph13]

What if...



Rhizo

[chatpilot]

Lmao good one Rhizomorph

[Pippy]

The belief in a being in the sky in not necessary for prayer. There is a huge difference between prayer and 'talking to yourself'.

All I am arguing is that you cannot make the statement 'how can anyone believe in the power of prayer'. The power of prayer is real, but smaller and in a different place than posited.

Thanks,
-Pip

[Eilonnwy]

Don't change the meaning of prayer to suit your interpretation. We're talking about intercessory prayer, and it is PROVEN to not work.

Prayer as meditation can be useful, but it can be achieved through purely secular means.

[Rob]

Personally, I've fount prayer to be a very ineffective aid to meditation.

Usually when I meditate my entire body goes numb and it feels as though the universe suddenly isn't there. I also start seeing bizarre patterns and sometimes hear strange sounds which a more spiritually inclined person could interpret as something meaningful. I find under these conditions I become much more relaxed and focused than I usually am.

This never happened to the same extent when I prayed. Not even close. some people might experience something similar to be able to hear the voice of god and such but most of the experiences I've heard of can't be differentiated from day dreams, which some could say is a light form of meditation. As this is probably the case, the same effect as prayer can be achieved by sitting there being bored.

In all, prayer can be used as a meditation tool, but I'd liken it to trying to hammer nails using a bag of marsh mellows. Ineffective and the wrong tool for the job.