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A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 5:34 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2012 at 5:36 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
1. Let's assume that there is one god and it is whatever is the most influential force in the universe.
2. The universe as a whole has more influence than anything else because without it nothing else can exist, because everything is part of it. It is so influential that it necessitates existence itself by definition, assuming that the universe is everything.
3. Therefore the universe itself as a whole is god.
Thoughts?
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 5:54 pm
Then I don't see any difference between the universe and God (i.e. if the universe itself as a whole is God), although the idea is not necessarily incorrect.
It's like equating the definition of God with "everything."
But, now, that leads to the question: What *is* God?
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 5:58 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2012 at 5:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
1: I'd say lets not assume that, but sure, I'll bite. Why would influence qualify something for divinity?
2: Well, without understanding why influence qualifies something for divinity any criticism I have of this part would be moot, eh?
3: The universe is probably, you know, "the universe" but if you want to redefine either concept so that they are interchangeable that's your call.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 5:58 pm
Why affix the label "god" to the universe?
I get that given 1 that 3 follows from 2 and 2 is logically sound, but 1 and 3 seem needless to me. Why not just stop at the universe is great without needing to label it further?
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Some people, in my experience, seem to think that if you change the label, you change the belief. For example, some people think they're not atheists even when they don't believe in a creator of the universe and god is defined that way. My point is it's not about the label, it's about what you actually believe. I can define god as "everything" and become a theist therefore and yet my atheistic beliefs haven't changed whatsoever because I was only ever atheist in the sense that I didn't believe in deities, it has nothing to do with believing in the universe. That was my point in this thread. I can be an atheist and a pantheist even though pantheism is a kind of theism and atheism contradicts theism because I'm an atheist in a different sense to the sense that I'm a theist.
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 6:01 pm
Once you've redefined the universe as god and claimed belief in it you -do- believe in deities.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 6:06 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2012 at 6:10 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 29, 2012 at 5:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: 1: I'd say lets not assume that[...]
Well that is the required premise for my purpose for this thread. Why would you bother disagreeing/agreeing with me if you're not going to follow that?
Quote: [...] Why would influence qualify something for divinity?
I never defined god as divine.
Quote:The universe is probably, you know, "the universe" but if you want to redefine either concept so that they are interchangeable that's your call.
I am well aware that the universe is the universe, that's a tautology. I never said that god is the universe, I started with "let's assume[...]" and then showed that from that assumption it then followed that god is the universe.
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 6:07 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2012 at 6:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Why make that assumption though, it all starts there doesn't it?
(if god is not divine then you are playing very loose with the term god, wouldn't you agree? No worries, why would influence qualify something as "god")
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 6:12 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2012 at 6:12 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 29, 2012 at 6:01 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Once you've redefined the universe as god and claimed belief in it you -do- believe in deities.
If I'm defining the universe as a deity and believing it, yes. But I'm not, I'm defining god as the universe and unless you're saying the universe is a deity, I don't believe in deities.
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RE: A pantheistic argument.
October 29, 2012 at 6:14 pm
I must be confused, who was it that just said
"therefore the universe as a whole is god"?
Pretty sure it wasn't me.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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