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What do you do in Heaven?
#21
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
(November 7, 2012 at 12:06 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: The "Free will" argument is pathetic, it's a cop-out: Allowing suffering and evil to exist when you're omnipotent demonstrates that you're not omnibenevolent.
NSS. Of course god's not omnibenevolent. Ever hear of the flood?
Quote:I don't understand your "POE" comment. I'm not a poe, nor am I aware that I am addressing one.
POE = problem of evil. If you want to discuss it, why not make a thread about it, instead og hijacking a discussion on heaven?
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#22
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
God created evil. He is omniscent, and therefore know that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve, even before he created them. He knew all of the possible outcomes for this temptation, and chose to give Adam and Eve, at creation, a set of morals he knew would be inadequete to resist the temptation. He said they would die if they ate the fruit, but becuase he gave them no knowledege of good and evil they could not possibly concieve that there was any moral reason for them not to eat it. God knew that not giving them this knowlege would lead to the fall, but he didn't give it anyway. God did not merely allow the fall, he predestined it.
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#23
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
Some interesting comments since I went offline, then. I'd like to thank our resident theist members for actually taking the trouble of responding to my idle musings; casting no nasturtiums, it's simply that in my experience these sort of questions from nonbelievers seem to attract attention from fellow atheists rather than the theists to whom they are primarily aimed (though of course all responses are welcome). I think it's mainly due to the possibilty, real or imagined, of the question being the setup to a trap that all-too often discourages theists from sharing their beliefs and opinions, possibly exposing them to ridicule. Anyway...

Re: Jeff. I see what you're saying there, that Heaven is forecast - prophesied, if you like, though these prophecies are not a patch on my own, as the record here will attest - anyway, it's said to be a future kingdom brought down here to Earth rather than some celestial post-mortem dwelling. Incidentally, I know of one person, and others here will know who I mean, who believes whole-heartedly that scripture points to the new kingdom as being a city on Mars. Regardless, this future city, wherever it's to be sited, isn't quite what I had in mind when I posed the original question. It may be naive of me but the traditional picture of Heaven is a place where the saved go after shuffling off this mortal coil. If this picture is wrong, or misguided, are we talking of a scenario in which the saved dead are held in a sort of stasis in the grave or wherever, until this new kingdom with room for 144,000 of them is established?

Either way, the description given for how those saved souls are to behave fits my suspicions rather well. If there is to be no sin etc, then surely that infringes upon the free will of the heavenly tenants, since they will be unable even to commit a sin even accidentally? Worse, they can only act in ways that accord with your god's "glory", worshipping it for all eternity, which as I stated upfront is a hell of a long time - a kind of infinity. A case in point can be lifted directly from your post. You say that "there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness". I was never content being single even before meeting up with my beloved Princess; I most certainly am not now after having her stolen from me. Obviously, there is little chance of my being considered for this new kingdom, since as an unbeliever I commit the one unforgivable sin. However, assuming for the moment that I do qualify for the housing list, I am to remain in this distressingly single state forever. Any version of me that has been reprogrammed so as accept this unhappy state is not going to be a me that anyone of my acquaintance is going to recognise, least of all me.

I'm interested too in how you expect businesses to work with all sin nullified. Aren't the overwhelming majority of businesses dependent on such 'sins' as greed, envy, lust perhaps? Even those ultra-rare businesses that might exist which operate on co-operative principles rely on a rigidly-defined system of demarcation, an us-and-them setup, which must inevitably lead to resentment of sorts between management and staff. I fear that such answers that may be offered for these matters are going to boil down at some point to 'godwillsit' or similar.



Re: John V - thank you for prefacing your reply with the honest "I don't know", though given what followed about the Universe being the size it is purely for our post-mortem benefit, I rather suspect that your pastor, good man though I'm sure he is, may not perhaps be the best source of information in this sort of area. I hesitate to throw words like "idiot" around; as I say, I know nothing of the man besides what you share here. On the other hand, I wonder if he realises the sheer scale of the Universe as we know it - and that's only the observable Universe, remember. Even if everyone who has ever lived and died here on Earth, including all those to come until the final days of our planet, were each granted a star system of their very own, I severely doubt that the human presence would extend much beyond just this galaxy.

As for the question of where are all the new things in this life, I'm sorry but that's quite startlingly parochial. Even if we go back just a century, the advances in such things as transport, comunications, medicine, media technology etc are simply and truly astonishing. Back a century before that, and even the discovery of things we take for granted today, such as electricity, would seem like magic if not for the enquiring minds that abounded round about that time. It has been said that reverse engineering the average flying saucer, supposedly being so highly advanced or conceptually alien, would tax even the most brillant minds of today in much the same way that a nuclear submarine would do for Leonardo da Vinci. That's the sort of scale we're talking about here. Where was the Iron Age internet, for instance?

Regardless, all the books, DVDs, internet porn, whatever, that could ever be conceived can only be a distraction akin to scratching your nose, compared to the unending vastness of eternity. As I said, even if eternity lasts until the heat death of the Universe, there's only so many times one can read Harry Potter or watch Star Trek before going psychopathically insane from sheer boredom. In the case of the former, once would do it for me.

Thoughts?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#24
What do you do in Heaven?
[quote='Reasonable_Jeff' pid='359621' dateline='1352288513']
Christianity believes that Jesus will return and restore the Earth to what it was like before sin.

God will essentially bring heaven down to Earth and we will live our lives to his glory without sin. It will be like life now, businesses running, sports, entertainment.....but there will be no more sin or suffering and everyone will love the LORD and do all things to his glory. We will be able to worship God in his very near presence and do as He's created us to do for all eternity.

Interestingly there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness.
[\quote]

WTF is this shit?!?! I've heard this before in person. A world without crime or sin or guilt would be vastly different from what we currently have. Our entire psychological makeup would be altered. We wouldn't be ourselves. Entertainment without sin?? That's half the fun, to live vicariously though fictional characters who get to do things we could/would never do. But I suppose we would all be naked, as were Adam and Eve, which would be fun... Without marriage, I'm guessing pre-marital sex would be allowed. This whole scenario seems rather pervish... And if the lions are eating hay, then I guess we'll all be vegans. I know a few people who would find that to be hell.
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#25
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
Quote:POE = problem of evil. If you want to discuss it, why not make a thread about it, instead og hijacking a discussion on heaven?

I'm not "hijacking" the conversation simply developed.
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#26
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
To which I, contender for the 2012 thread derailing championships, have no complaints; all discussion, however nominally relevant, is welcome.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#27
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
(November 7, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Re: John V - thank you for prefacing your reply with the honest "I don't know", though given what followed about the Universe being the size it is purely for our post-mortem benefit, I rather suspect that your pastor, good man though I'm sure he is, may not perhaps be the best source of information in this sort of area. I hesitate to throw words like "idiot" around; as I say, I know nothing of the man besides what you share here. On the other hand, I wonder if he realises the sheer scale of the Universe as we know it - and that's only the observable Universe, remember. Even if everyone who has ever lived and died here on Earth, including all those to come until the final days of our planet, were each granted a star system of their very own, I severely doubt that the human presence would extend much beyond just this galaxy.
Considering your own limitations, it's good that you hesitate to call others idiots, and it would be better if you also refrained from hinting at it. I said explorers, not settlers. The point is that exploring the universe would give people something to do for a very long time, and if God contimues adding to the universe eternally, it gives them something to do forever.
Quote:As for the question of where are all the new things in this life, I'm sorry but that's quite startlingly parochial. Even if we go back just a century, the advances in such things as transport, comunications, medicine, media technology etc are simply and truly astonishing. Back a century before that, and even the discovery of things we take for granted today, such as electricity, would seem like magic if not for the enquiring minds that abounded round about that time. It has been said that reverse engineering the average flying saucer, supposedly being so highly advanced or conceptually alien, would tax even the most brillant minds of today in much the same way that a nuclear submarine would do for Leonardo da Vinci. That's the sort of scale we're talking about here. Where was the Iron Age internet, for instance?

Regardless, all the books, DVDs, internet porn, whatever, that could ever be conceived can only be a distraction akin to scratching your nose, compared to the unending vastness of eternity. As I said, even if eternity lasts until the heat death of the Universe, there's only so many times one can read Harry Potter or watch Star Trek before going psychopathically insane from sheer boredom. In the case of the former, once would do it for me.

Thoughts?
Again, you miss the point. The new things that you mention were all produced by people. There will still be people in heaven. We have no reason to believe that the people in heaven can't write new books, make new music, invent new technology, and so on. Reading Harry Potter once might drive me crazy, but heaven will conceivably have a bigger library than that, and one that is ever expanding with new works.
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#28
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
I concede all my limitations unreservedly, however notwithstanding that I actually do know a few things about the Universe and don't resort to misguided speculations about what I know to be incorrect. I'm certainly not in a position where I'm considered an authority on things I have little idea about. Maybe it was a little impolitic of me to put the word "idiot" into your head, but that in no way takes from the perception that you are getting your information from decidedly unreliable sources. I will continue to call a spade by whatever adjective applies, but thank you for your concern.

It's easy for me to miss all sorts of points, indeed I'm certain that I will still do so even if the point is covered in chocolate and stuck under my nose. Maybe if the point was better defined it might help. That is, after all, the purpose of this thread, no? For instance, we are told that all things considered as sin will not exist in this scenario. I find it hard to conceive of new books, films etc forged in such an environment. Such things depend on conflict to make them not only interesting but to work structurally. There may still be people to produce these works, but as we have seen they are to be people reprogrammed with but a single thought, a single desire, to worship the boss for all eternity (whatever eternity means in practise, I don't think we've established that yet). Forget Harry Potter, will there be the likes of Fanny Hill in this heavenly library?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#29
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
Quote:Christianity believes that Jesus will return and restore the Earth to what it was like before sin.


Xtians believe lots of silly shit, Jeff.
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#30
RE: What do you do in Heaven?
(November 7, 2012 at 4:26 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I concede all my limitations unreservedly, however notwithstanding that I actually do know a few things about the Universe and don't resort to misguided speculations about what I know to be incorrect.
Neither did my pastor. You actually supported his point by pointing out the vastness of the universe relative to the number of humans (and we're only talking about saved humans with a desire to explore). You may be interested to know he said this in a sermon after talking about the movie Contact, which was written by an atheist.
Quote:I'm certainly not in a position where I'm considered an authority on things I have little idea about. Maybe it was a little impolitic of me to put the word "idiot" into your head,
Yes, I merely would have corrected you without the condescension if you hadn't started down that path.
Quote:but that in no way takes from the perception that you are getting your information from decidedly unreliable sources. I will continue to call a spade by whatever adjective applies, but thank you for your concern.
Again, you actually supported his point.
Quote:It's easy for me to miss all sorts of points, indeed I'm certain that I will still do so even if the point is covered in chocolate and stuck under my nose. Maybe if the point was better defined it might help. That is, after all, the purpose of this thread, no? For instance, we are told that all things considered as sin will not exist in this scenario. I find it hard to conceive of new books, films etc forged in such an environment. Such things depend on conflict to make them not only interesting but to work structurally.
I would question the position that conflict necessarily involves sin, or that the implications of sin cannot be pondered without causing the reader to sin. Regardless, we still have art, music, science, and technology, which don't depend on conflict.
Quote:There may still be people to produce these works, but as we have seen they are to be people reprogrammed with but a single thought, a single desire, to worship the boss for all eternity
Er, no, I haven't seen this. Some Christians believe this, and maybe for them it's applicable, but I've never seen it supported for all people from the Bible.
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