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November 8, 2012 at 4:11 pm (This post was last modified: November 8, 2012 at 4:14 pm by Creed of Heresy.)
I'm God.
You can't prove I'm not.
Therefore I must be God. Worship me.
Proof of miracles? Well, I died and came back to life.
That's right. My heart stopped for a minute and a half. I was clinically dead. And then I was rescucitated [or resurrected as you bronze-age-beliefists say]. I rose from the grave. Therefore I must be God. I am writing this, after all. That's proof I am alive. And I can bring together Gospels from no less than ten different sources from eyewitnesses who were attending and know of this! That's right, TEN! I can outdo that Jewish loser by SIX WHOLE WITNESSES. And since the claim can be made, you MUST believe it! Because My Word is truth, because I say it is, and you know it is because it is truth and you know it's truth because I say it is and you know it is because I say it is and you know it's truth because I say it is and you know it is because I say it is and you know it's truth because I say it is and you know it is because I say it is and you know it's truth because I say it is and you know it is because I say it is and you know it's truth because I say it is and you know it is because I say it is and you know it's truth because I say it is and you know it is because I say it is [ad infinitum]
This is the logic people like you follow, "Reasonable" Jeff.
Now get on your knees and worship me, heathen, for if you refuse me in spirit I shall cast you into damnation of the worst, most inhumane torture you can ever imagine. That's right. I'll send you to linger for an eternity in New Jersey. You dare question me? I am the Lord Our God! I shall prove this by making you breathe!
SEE?! YOU JUST BREATHED. That is proof of my almighty powers.
You starting to get the picture yet, Unreasonable Jeffrey?
(November 8, 2012 at 12:26 am)SpecUVdust Wrote: I am an atheist. My perception of reality may not be anything like yours, but hear me out. I have known many theists that have expressed to me that they believe in their god because it "makes sense where nothing else does." I will offer "sense" to anyone who says such a thing. This thread is intended as help for those people balancing beliefs, not as an assault on "God."
So lets just talk about things that make sense. The universe is the largest known "thing." Undeniably the greatest thing known by humans. As we humans are made of the same dust that makes up the universe, we are part of it. We are, therefore, the greatest thing we know of. Without our brains in existence, the universe ( at least at this address in space ) would not "know" itself. This understanding gives us a sense of profound importance and encourages us to expand and be bountiful without ever mentioning the "G" word.
So you say "what then caused the universe?" Well, you cannot have only "nothing." Also, you cannot have only "something." Therefore, you can deduce that to have nothing you must also have something. Without "something", the term "nothing" makes no sense and vice versa. So there has always been a combo of both stuff and no stuff. We can see this as the vast majority of the universe contains nothing(empty space).
So imagine all the black holes in the universe over the course of time swallow all their neighbors, then each other one by one until you have one black hole containing the entire universe minus one spec of dust. This black hole is unstable and near its threshold of being to weak(even gravitationally) to hold together matter of this magnitude. So suddenly, boom, Big Bang. The process then begins all over again.
Again, this theory is to help you people realize that there are ways to explain the universe at large without ever needing "divine guidance." You are a human brain, equal in importance to the cosmos itself. Do not delude and humble yourself with iron-age fairy tales.
SOMEone's been watching some Carl Sagan! I approve.
(November 8, 2012 at 4:11 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: I'm God.
You can't prove I'm not.
Therefore I must be God. Worship me.
Proof of miracles? Well, I died and came back to life.
If you really died a death like Jesus did, and then were seen with a restored body by multiple witnesses after.......I think you would have a good case that you are God.
(November 8, 2012 at 5:31 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If you really died a death like Jesus did, and then were seen with a restored body by multiple witnesses after.......I think you would have a good case that you are God.
Dying a spectacular death + resurrection + other miracles =a God created the universe?
(November 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I believe there is compelling evidence to warrant a belief in Jesus as a historic person who did in fact rise from the grave.
There is some evidence that there was a historical figure that the Biblical Jesus character is based on, but there is none that he rose from the dead.
The city of Troy was discovered using the Iliad as a source. Does that mean that Zeus existed?
Quote:Whether or not a snake talked...I don't know...could be literal or it could be a literary device. Either way it doesn't affect the evidence for Jesus which is the focal point for me.
What is the algorithm that you personally apply to the Bible in order to determine which parts are literary devices or literal?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
(November 8, 2012 at 3:41 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: "Existence has always existed" means that "there has never been a time when non-existence has existed". It doesn't mean that "existence has already reached a later point in time, of the infinite future time available, where heat death has been experienced".
You see, you speak of an infinite future time available, but don't comprehend that always having existed likewise means that an infinite past time has already gone by. You're claiming it's always existed, yet treating it as if it had a definite starting point.
And again - how old is something that has always existed? There's no way to answer that. Yet, science tells us the universe has a finite age.
November 8, 2012 at 6:14 pm (This post was last modified: November 8, 2012 at 6:21 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
As I said, the that has always existed but not the what. In the sense that the what changes. Essence is not the same as existence. I explained all that, address those other points I made perhaps, please.
Science tells us that what science has detected has a finite age. It obviously can't tell us anything that it hasn't detected or anything beyond its scope! And can it even measure infinity anyway?
The fact remains that it's total nonsense to claim that non-existence ever existed. You might as well be arguing for square circles. Since non-existence never existed, existence has always existed.
Science defines things different ways. The classic example is how the definition of "atom" changed completely to suit science's sound discoveries. The "nothingness" that science detects obviously isn't the same as pure non-existence because how can you possibly detect something that isn't there? For something to be detectable there has to be something to be detected!
Science is sound and valid but it redefines things and that should be recognized. You can't truly measure non-existence. Existence has always existed.
(November 8, 2012 at 1:19 am)SpecUVdust Wrote: Godchild-
So... You believe a snake talked.
No I do not believe in a talking snake, the scriptures never say a snake talked. A snake does not have legs, you do know this, don't you. Do I believe the Genesis story, absolutely.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
November 8, 2012 at 7:37 pm (This post was last modified: November 8, 2012 at 7:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Dragons...remember....its dragons, not snakes....talking snakes would be ridiculous.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 8, 2012 at 3:03 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Existence is eternal but that doesn't mean that we've already experienced an eternity of existence....
How could it be possible to ever experience all of something which never ends.
DVF Wrote:Since existence is eternal then there's always more time to go...
This I would agree with.
DVF Wrote:And sorry but the entire concept of there ever being non-existence doesn't make sense. Non-existence can't be anything, non-existence is nothing, non-existence can't exist.
Non-existence does make sense, and I do agree with your definition of non-existence. What I do not agree with is that everything was non-existent. God has always been and is the cause of all that has ever existed.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
