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Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
#31
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
Well, I was counting the justice system, enforcement of property rights, contract law, anti-fraud stuff... as sticks =P, just meant that I wasn't advocating for anarchy or a situation where companies can do literally anything they might want to, can't think of a carrot tbh*...

My catalogue of sticks is about a page long and is applied justly =P

*except in the sense that the sticks are used to protect, to create a safe free market environment. No handouts but, no true carrots Tongue

Free market: (I won't bother with much anti-corporatism, though I do think that under the current system such things are inevitable (so long as politicians have a lot of power over the markets...), as it's no-one's ideal mixed market (except for those at the top)) No taking from you to pay for things you don't support, might not want to buy. Taxes are cut, what is there for the government to pay for aside from some basics like the courts and national defence? I would argue that it's a purer form of democracy, the customers deciding what products survive and spread (rather than bureaucrats) each voting with their wallets. Much easier to start a business (which fosters competition, driving down prices). Tax compliance* and regulatory compliance costs, nearly gone (cheaper products),...
Moral argument: it's based on voluntary interactions between consenting individuals.

Edit: Ah, you want very detailed explanations... purely utilitarian?
Nemo me impune lacessit.
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#32
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
On the subject of changeing energy transition.

After doing a quick search on the net I now know that:

France, where the entire energy sector is owned by the state is making a nonliberterian transition based on goverment reforms only.
Germany where several companies supply energy is making an effort through giving massive subsidation and giving goverment handouts with demanding transparecy and results (laws set but work done by companies)
Denmark makes a similiar approach like Germany with the difference of focusing on small buisnesses and not giving any subsidations to big corporations, aswell as danish buisnesses only (Denmark has the most transparent goverment in the world, where almoust every information goverment action is accessable by the public)

What they all have in common is, that the goals set are to reach a certain ammount of green energy by 2020-2040. (I havent found a single liberterian only approach to this problem, so I guess it has been put of the table as an option by most). And since the US is a bt far behind on this issue, they have the benefit of looking at Europe later, and taking over the concept which has worked best.
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#33
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
Because the libertarian position seems to be (libertarian specific to my country..mind you..ignoring of course that the most common response to an energy problem offered up by libertarians here is to drill more oil......)

"issues will handle themselves"
"the market will provide or become the solution"
"people will inexplicably begin purchasing on principle en-masse"

I don't know what goes into any of these things...and I bet there are far more nuanced and well thought out explanations. I'd love to hear them.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#34
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
(November 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't know what goes into any of these things...and I bet there are far more nuanced and well thought out explanations. I'd love to hear them.

I`ll give you some facts of the legislature about the german energy transition:

from wiki:
Quote:The key policy document outlining the Energiewende was published by the German government in September 2010, some six months before the Fukushima nuclear accident.[2] Legislative support was passed in 2011. Important aspects include:
greenhouse gas reductions : 80–95% reduction by 2050
renewable energy targets : 60% share by 2050
energy efficiency : electricity efficiency up by 50% by 2050
an associated research and development drive

And as far as I can read from this:
http://www.spiegel.de/thema/energiewende/

programs are being proposed and some are still in consideration, such as:
nationalising the electric supply network for the time of the energy transition to make it`s use cost less for the corporations and prices not to rise for public and buisness.
subsidising civil participation projects - such as a village buying it`s own windmill to produce it`s own electricity.
Dezentralising federal energie laws - to give every german state it`s own minestry of energy and it`s own budget.

So far the only thing being done is:
A massive windpark in the baltic sea, which has been damaged by incompetence of management and beaucracy.

To be honest - the enregy transition is currently lagging a bit behind in Germany probably because we have ernestly been focusing on it for a year.

Personaly I hope that we will look to scandinavia - especialy to Denmark for help and support from them.
They have been doing their energy transition since the 1970s after the oil crisis and are doing pritty well due to their expirience (erfahrung)

I will try to find more detailed explainations, articles and blue sheets of the concepts used in english language if you like.
This would decrease the possibilities of me posting nonsence due to incorrect translation.
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#35
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
(November 15, 2012 at 3:10 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: The will of most consumers is to have a cheap, comfortably accessable product. Inovation is expensive - so inovative but better products might die out under such sircumstances.
If that is the will of the consumers, it should be met. I don't see an advantage in forcing companies to make a loss, or to subsidize that loss with tax payer money when it is not what people want. Being friendly to the environment should not be forced on people; people should be educated to care, and to demand these changes themselves.

Quote:To drill, pump, manifacture, transport, market and sell oil - is currently cheaper than building solar pannels and windmills.
Sure, but only because the demand is not high enough. Do you think drilling was cheap when we first started doing it? Of course not. Once a company makes the right investments in solar panels and windmills, costs go down, because they learn better techniques and are able to better mass-produce said items. Indeed, drilling for oil is becoming more expensive as it runs out, and the oil companies are forced to drill in much harsher locations. A tipping point will occur; if the consumers are put in charge, this will happen sooner.

(November 15, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: And how will you get the consumer to buy and demand a more expensive product? And how will you get a companie to change from a less risky and comfortable way of production to a potentialy more risky one?
The point is, it won't be a more expensive product. The price of oil is going up; the price of renewable energy is going down. There are people researching methods for cutting down the costs of renewable energy all the time. Besides, if it is a consumer demanded product in a consumer controlled market, the price is likewise set by the consumer. Oil is not a less risky and comfortable way of production. BP just got fined billions of dollars for stupid mistakes that caused countless amounts of environmental damage and the deaths of workers on an oil rig. If the demand is there, it is not a risk at all. Besides, companies that already exist can slowly move their current consumers over to renewable energy if the consumer is up for it.

(November 15, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: That is wishfull thinking aslong as there is no logisticaly possible concept to actualy achieve something like that.
It's not wishful thinking...it's the way the market works. Supply and demand. Those that can supply to meet the demand succeed. Those that cannot supply to meet the demand fail.

(November 15, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Newspapers are not inferstructur - such as energy is. And the climate and with it it`s planet wont go up in a bunch of smoke and flames if people dont change their choice of media.
Irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that consumer action does work. It's worked pretty fast for newspapers (tablets have only existed for a few years). If government was to stop propping up oil companies, I'd posit that the same thing would happen for them.

(November 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm)festive1 Wrote: I think removing regulations would allow a handful of monopolies to form. Welcome the second coming of the 1920's. Not so hot. I don't have a better plan, and the government has issues so I don't think government takeovers would help anything. Not everyone can choose to buy things because they fit their moral/ethical/green standards, they simply can't afford to. It's a tough question, I certainly don't have all the answers, but I don't agree with your suggestion.
I said "excessive regulation". That which prevents small companies from getting a grip in the market. Small business is a good thing, and there are two things that prevent small business from forming: monopolies are one, but excessive regulation is another.

(November 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "issues will handle themselves"
More that some issues should be outside the role of government.
Quote:"the market will provide or become the solution"
More that a free market ultimately has to bow to the will of the consumers.
Quote:"people will inexplicably begin purchasing on principle en-masse"
More that with a free market, small business can thrive, and you don't need people to purchase "en-masse"; you just need enough people to purchase from the small businesses out there. Having a niche in the market is a very powerful thing.
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#36
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
(November 15, 2012 at 4:46 pm)Tiberius Wrote: More that some issues should be outside the role of government.
Lockstep with you on that one. We'd have to pick a particular issue though if we wanted to get more specific. Alternative energy?

Quote:More that a free market ultimately has to bow to the will of the consumers.
Well, so long as the will of the consumers is within their power to demand. I can demand a Bentley all day long but I still can't afford one. Still need a car though.....What about the famous example of Henry Fords Model T. "You can have it any color you like, as long as it's black." I think the market is equally as capable of making demands or setting terms on the consumer.
Quote:More that with a free market, small business can thrive, and you don't need people to purchase "en-masse"; you just need enough people to purchase from the small businesses out there. Having a niche in the market is a very powerful thing.
It's powerful for the producer of the good absolutely (I'm a niche marketer...it's great for me). I don't know that it's great for something like alternative energy though (or energy at all).

I think that one of the major advantages of a mixed market over a free market is our ability to make that market work for us in ways that we deem to be important (while the obvious drawback is that those who "deem" these things aren't beyond reproach...nor are the things we "deem" themselves beyond reproach even if the "deemers" as it were...were). Markets are a tool, aren't they? I like to make my tools do work.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#37
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
(November 15, 2012 at 4:46 pm)Tiberius Wrote: If that is the will of the consumers, it should be met. I don't see an advantage in forcing companies to make a loss, or to subsidize that loss with tax payer money when it is not what people want. Being friendly to the environment should not be forced on people; people should be educated to care, and to demand these changes themselves.

So eaven if a socialy issue has a amount of urrgency to it - you wouldnt give a amount of incentive or ad a sence of urgency to it?

And about consumer needs: you would give an ok, to product which are made with CFC gasses which are very harmfull to the invirorment but cheap to produce, aswell as to Aspestos which is a healthrisk but would build cheap but stabil structures?
India actualy still imports and builds with massive amounts of Aspestos - simply because they think it`s what the customer wants.
There is a reason why certain products are regulated - a lab rat to which one gives cocain will take it until it dies. and although this is a bit of a weird comparison - i do believe alot of consumers will prefer products harmfull to them and sociaty in general - as long as they are comfortable.

I actualy have two studies in english which confirm what i am talking about:

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.h...eid=854436
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProd...293998.pdf

And my other major point is, Why should a company change it`s product?
As far as I know, estimates are that 70% of the worldwide crude oil supply is still not raised. That`s a certain big amount of profit - so why throw away that profit? Many energy companies in the US go so far as to deny global warming actualy exists and fund unscientific counterstudies to manipulate public opinion.
This is not theory - it is fact.

(November 15, 2012 at 4:46 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Sure, but only because the demand is not high enough. Do you think drilling was cheap when we first started doing it? Of course not. Once a company makes the right investments in solar panels and windmills, costs go down, because they learn better techniques and are able to better mass-produce said items. Indeed, drilling for oil is becoming more expensive as it runs out, and the oil companies are forced to drill in much harsher locations. A tipping point will occur; if the consumers are put in charge, this will happen sooner.

As I mentioned before public opinion is not always in favor of what is good.
And demand - well demand is settled - we use oil and coal - the question is not "How to cover demand" or "How to make a product more market friendly?" but "How to change the means of production?"

No offence - but making a prophecy of a "tipping point" is the kind of wishfull thinking which causes delay and inefficiancy.

I prefer exact plans and blue prints on how to work on solving issues now
than having dreams

(November 15, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: The point is, it won't be a more expensive product. The price of oil is going up; the price of renewable energy is going down. There are people researching methods for cutting down the costs of renewable energy all the time. Besides, if it is a consumer demanded product in a consumer controlled market, the price is likewise set by the consumer. Oil is not a less risky and comfortable way of production. BP just got fined billions of dollars for stupid mistakes that caused countless amounts of environmental damage and the deaths of workers on an oil rig. If the demand is there, it is not a risk at all. Besides, companies that already exist can slowly move their current consumers over to renewable energy if the consumer is up for it.

Oil pricess go up as inflation goes up - and considering the amount of crude oil still out there aswell as the advancing technology to find it - I wouldnt be suprised if oil will be kept as product until there is non left.
Oil is more comfortable - because it`s production and sale is a known field - unlike green energy where current participants are pioneers - therefor risky. it might be true that it will be less risky in the future - when better understood - but to get that far it has to be understood - and most companies refuse to invest due to reasons mentioned above.

(November 15, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: It's not wishful thinking...it's the way the market works. Supply and demand. Those that can supply to meet the demand succeed. Those that cannot supply to meet the demand fail.

But it is wishfull thinking to believe that the same people who finance "anti-climate change studies" because they find comfort within their usual means of production with oil and coal - will suddently - through magic - realise that a unknown field of experties which is potentialy risky might be the right solution.
Oil and coal supplies will probably last for another 100 years - and if it`s production ends and green energy starts because there is no oil and coal left - then it is to late.

(November 15, 2012 at 3:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that consumer action does work. It's worked pretty fast for newspapers (tablets have only existed for a few years). If government was to stop propping up oil companies, I'd posit that the same thing would happen for them.

It is not irrelevant - there is a urgency to the subject of climate change - meaning that it is importent to be solved - and to take the gamble that the general public will suddently start to fight it individualy due to prophesised rising gas prices is a bit of a gamble.
And can you give me an example where a goverment which fights climate change - "props up a company" which produces oil? Rick Perry?????
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#38
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
As a minor nitpick Tib. Yes, drilling oil was cheap. In our country it's first prominent appearance is as an unwanted byproduct in brine wells in Pennsylvania. Similarly, gasoline was another unwanted byproduct (of kerosene distillation...itself sought after because whale oil was becoming prohibitively expensive), used as an inexpensive solvent until the introduction of the automobile. I think your comment about a tipping point is a great way to reinforce the advantage of a mixed market btw. Do you think it's wise that we allow the market to take us to that tipping point on autopilot?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#39
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
@Tiberius

I dont want you to think that I am one of these usual brainless zombies who troll around making factless statements and baseless fearmongering about "liberterian fashism".
I dont have any objection to political schools which work within the framework of democracy, I myself am a strong advocate of decentralisation of goverment and do acknowlege the benefits a free market brings to a sociaty.
But the main point arround which my opinion evolves in terms of social and political matters is efficiency and a record of positive results. I do not give notice to "prophets" who cannot deliver concepts and do not show eaven the slightest sign of daugth. I prefer pragmatic aproaches and the best politician to me is the one who is his own worst critic, the reevaluation of ones political and sociatal concepts aswell as the demonstration of it`s results and predictions with statistics, studies and facts in general, is to me far more importent than insisting on a dreamish plan ignoring factual evidence against it. The logistics behind a political plan which can give a percentage of certainty towards efficiency and if it actualy, works are far more importent to me than the philosophical concept behint that idea.
My main issue with a completly liberterian goverment would probably be a "moral" argument you have probably been confronted with very oftern.
This is more a philosophical argument than a "actual political" one. If I debate current political issues - I always insist on "examples" and facts - from meatspace - which are presented to back up statements, aswell as I want other participants to demand facts from me.
The "moral" argument, of my concern is:

"How can one be certain, that a collective within a sociaty - which is not bound to regulations, which insure the healthy state of this sociaty, will put effort into assuring the healthy state of this sociaty?"

To me doing so is "a gamble"
I am not a big friend of philosophical debates. I like facts to back ones arguments up. So if you would be more interested in giving a link to a study which answeres this question, backed up with meatspace facts rather than defending a motion (which is rethoricaly harder than speaking against a motion) I`d be eager to read it.
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#40
RE: Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Ass On The Way Out, Ron
(November 15, 2012 at 4:24 am)Tiberius Wrote: He is outspoken in a good way. A republican who doesn't simply pander to his party.

He is not a racist. I thought we'd cleared up this issue before.

Well, Ron Paul might not be racist, but Tiberius still is. Tongue
"Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did--not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to."

-Ruta Skadi, The Subtle Knife
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