My journey to atheism

[DeistPaladin]

Yes, we protestants...

I always thought of Anglicanism as neo-Catholic more than Protestant. Much of the same hierarchy, rituals and traditions were kept when the Anglican Church separated from Rome.

[Aractus]

That's because we de-facto accept some of the earlier councils. What you have to remember is that we don't preach "Anglican-only" the way that Catholics preach the "one true gospel"

[DeistPaladin]

That's because we de-facto accept some of the earlier councils. What you have to remember is that we don't preach "Anglican-only" the way that Catholics preach the "one true gospel"

Right, "Catholic-lite" as Robin Williams once observed.

Inherent in the Protestant reformation is the rejection of ceremony, tradition and hierarchy in favor of the "personal relationship" with Jesus (whatever that means to the believer) and the direction from the Bible. Of course, the Bible is a deeply contradictory book and communication with Jesus is one-sided, hence all the fragmentation among Protestant sects.

Anglicanism is therefore closer, in my view, to Catholicism than Protestantism.

[Aractus]

At the time of the reformation, Catholics didn't allow Christians to possess and study their own Bibles, and would burn the copies they dared to make. Tyndale was a reformist martyr, his crime was to be the first person to dare translate the scripture from the original greek and hebrew into English. Being that the RCC "interoperated" the Bible for their followers instead of allowing them to study it and interpret it on their own, I'd say we have little to nothing in common with the RCC. The RCC count the 4th century Latin translation as inspired scripture (afforded to it in the council of Trent)! And even that was not translated from Hebrew - Jerome used various sources for the O.T. and the most important one he used was his copy of the fifth column of the Hexapla, something that Origen had made by modifying and consolidating miscellaneous greek translations that scholars like to call "THE" Septuagint, even though there's no "the" about it, and "it" had already been modified before Origen started work on "it". That if "it" actually existed as a codex or fixed collection of translations before 245AD anyway.

[DeistPaladin]

I'd say we have little to nothing in common with the RCC.

It's hard for me to understand what you base that bare assertion on. That the Catholic Church cynically promoted their own political interests? As if the very founding of the Anglican Church wasn't for purely political purposes? That the Catholic Church used dubious translations of the Bible? As if the entire Bible weren't based on dubious translations, interpolations and pseudo-epigraphical insertions? Aside from the head of your Church living in Buckingham Palace instead of The Vatican, what's the huge theological difference between you?

[Aractus]

Theological difference are many, I can't believe you asked that question! Purgatory, Confession, Extreme Unction, The Rosary, Praying to Saints, etc, are all heretical concepts to us.

[Mark 13:13]

Theological difference are many, I can't believe you asked that question! Purgatory, Confession, Extreme Unction, The Rosary, Praying to Saints, etc, are all heretical concepts to us.

They do say the anglican church is a very broad church, there are some who would say so broad it could accomodate even athiests so I find it strange that it has a concept of heretical but i must explore further to see if your personal view completely aligns with what is said by others in that Church on those theological differences.

[Aractus]

Oi Mark 13:13, click this please:

[Mark 13:13]

Oi Mark 13:13, click this please:

one thing at a time . im exploring those heracies first

---

http://franciscan-anglican.com/An_Explan...canism.pdf

The Saints
There is some diversity of thought and practice in regard to the saints within the Anglican tradition. However, most
Anglicans would agree that we don't and should not "pray" to the saints (prayer is offered to God alone, indeed God
alone can be the recipient of prayer). And it goes without saying that the worship of the saints is idolatry and
absolutely not allowed. However, this does not mean that we cannot commune with the saints; in fact, we can
always ask them for their prayers and intercessions.

I think it is very much the Catholic position except that to avoid the negative association and confusion with the words "praying to" the word commune is used. We Catholics would be wise to do likewise as it would make our position clearer; in reality it is identical but I would agree not every professing Catholic understands the boundaries of their own faith but if questioned would retreat to the stated Anglican/proper Catholic position. Aren't words fantastic for getting ideas across and also so wonderful at confusing them. So although it rolls of the tongue easier to say I pray to St Joseph this gives a false impression of what I believe I know i'm doing when I should say I commune with St Joseph and ask for his prayers and intercessions on behalf of whatever i'm praying about ( oops meditating on ).

Other Sacramental Rites
Other rites that have evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit include:
· Holy Matrimony (the blessing of a marriage)
· Ordination (the setting apart of individuals for ministry) 7
· Reconciliation (confession of sin)
· Confirmation (an adult commitment to Christ following baptism)
· Unction of the sick (anointing and praying for sick)
· Extreme Unction (prayers and blessings just before death)
Of course, God is not limited to these rites alone, there are innumerable ways that God reaches out and touches us

mmh Extreme Unction where did i see that before, oh yes i remember a heretical belief to Anglicans.

True no mention of confession, purgatory or the Rosary either positive or negative here so I will dig deeper else where but can I say that although the Rosary is highly regarded it is as far as I know (but i need to clarify) in the category of "private revelation" and as such no required belief to be a catholic. I did find this in Wiki and similar on Catholic answers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary
Anglicanism
Main article: Anglican prayer beads
The use of the Roman Catholic Rosary is also fairly common among Anglicans of Anglo-Catholic churchmanship.[70] Many Anglo-Catholic prayer books and manuals of devotion contain the Roman Catholic Rosary along with other Marian devotions. The public services of the Anglican churches, as contained in the Book of Common Prayer, do not directly invoke the Blessed Virgin or any other saint in prayer, and the thirty-nine Articles of Religion reject the practice of praying to saints, but many Anglo-Catholics feel free to do so in their private devotions. Anglicans who pray the Roman Catholic Rosary tend not to use the Luminous Mysteries or the Fatima decade prayer.[66]
Anglican prayer beads, also known informally as the "Anglican Rosary", are a recent innovation created in the 1980s.[71] They consist of four "weeks" (the equivalent of a decade) of seven beads each. The weeks are separated from each other by single beads termed "cruciform beads." A variety of different prayers may be said, the most common being the Jesus Prayer.
No "power and promises" are associated with the Anglican Prayer Beads by those who pray on them. The Anglican Prayer Beads are not a Marian devotion, and there are no appointed meditations. Although it is sometimes called the "Anglican rosary," it is distinct from the Holy Rosary of Our Lady as prayed by Catholics, Anglicans, and other Western Christians.[70]

http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/news/...cfm?doc=97

In the Anglican Church, coming as we do from the Catholic and Reformed tradition, we have a via media middle way approach. We do not make it an obligation that people confess to a priest, but we do give people the opportunity. The regular way to express our confession is in public in our Communion Service. But there is also opportunity to make a sacramental confession to God through a priest and for some people this is the only way to make real the truth they need to tell. The Anglican teaching with regard to confession is, "All may, some should, none must". That is, no one is to be compelled to make their confession but it is available to all, and it is up to an individual's conscience whether they should or not. It is, if you like, a tool in the spiritual kit that we should not be afraid of but also not be hooked by.

Purgatory from my brief reads (as im rushing no "HOBBITS" calling.) i would say your position is probably standard for the Anglican but I would suggest not non-negotionable if we were to define Purgatory as we understand it now as the short discussion in this link suggests
http://gladtobeanglican.blogspot.co.uk/2...lican.html.

Don't think in my approach i'm taking your position lightly or underestimate the value of your private study and thinking I don't; even if sometimes I can come across as abrasive. When I returned after 20 years to my own RC only then did I realise how little I knew about my own faith traditions and my own misconceptions. Its hard in one life time to assimilate the scholarship of many generations, but there is growth in the journey and I wish you positive growth that you can then share with others.

[Aractus]

one thing at a time . im exploring those heracies first

ROFL OK then.

http://franciscan-anglican.com/An_Explan...canism.pdf

The Saints
There is some diversity of thought and practice in regard to the saints within the Anglican tradition. However, most
Anglicans would agree that we don't and should not "pray" to the saints (prayer is offered to God alone, indeed God
alone can be the recipient of prayer). And it goes without saying that the worship of the saints is idolatry and
absolutely not allowed. However, this does not mean that we cannot commune with the saints; in fact, we can
always ask them for their prayers and intercessions.

2 problems with that - 1. it's from an Episcopal source not an Anglican one (we tend to disagree with and distance ourselves from the Episcopal Church), 2. it's from a female priest - I and many other Anglicans, and all Catholics, reject women priests. And yes we're allowed to disagree on these things, that's what makes our denomination more flexible and less constrained, for better or for worse. It's heretical to talk to ANY dead people.

I think it is very much the Catholic position except that to avoid the negative association and confusion with the words "praying to" the word commune is used. We Catholics would be wise to do likewise as it would make our position clearer; in reality it is identical but I would agree not every professing Catholic understands the boundaries of their own faith but if questioned would retreat to the stated Anglican/proper Catholic position. Aren't words fantastic for getting ideas across and also so wonderful at confusing them. So although it rolls of the tongue easier to say I pray to St Joseph this gives a false impression of what I believe I know i'm doing when I should say I commune with St Joseph and ask for his prayers and intercessions on behalf of whatever i'm praying about ( oops meditating on ).

That's not your position at all. You position is that dead saints perform miracles. It’s a part of the beautification process. Your position is completely inconsistent with 1 Timothy 2:5.

Other Sacramental Rites
Other rites that have evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit include:
• Holy Matrimony (the blessing of a marriage)
• Ordination (the setting apart of individuals for ministry) 7
• Reconciliation (confession of sin)
• Confirmation (an adult commitment to Christ following baptism)
• Unction of the sick (anointing and praying for sick)
• Extreme Unction (prayers and blessings just before death)
Of course, God is not limited to these rites alone, there are innumerable ways that God reaches out and touches us

I think you mean that "evolved in the RCC under the guidance of the heretical RCC councils" not the Holy Spirit... oh and you're a Catholic and you just claimed that Extreme Unction = "prayers and blessings just before death". That's not the correct definition, and you should be the one defending it if I were to say that's the definition. Even the Catholic church moved on from “Last Rites”! Extreme Unction is for the living, it is for the SICK not specifically the dying, it is performed by a priest and he has to use "holy oil" - that is oil that has been "blessed" by a bishop because you think the healing power is in the oil. It's an heretical sacrament. There are only two sacraments that we recognize: baptism and marriage. Communion isn't a sacrament and it has no healing power.

As for confession I suggest you read James 5:16 and explain to me where it says to confess to clergy. And then when you've done that, read James 13-15 and tell me where it says that only clergy are to anoint the sick with the oil, and while you're at it explain where it says to bless the oil or where it says that healing power is in the oil and not in prayer.

Purgatory from my brief reads (as im rushing no "HOBBITS" calling.) i would say your position is probably standard for the Anglican but I would suggest not non-negotionable if we were to define Purgatory as we understand it now as the short discussion in this link suggests
http://gladtobeanglican.blogspot.co.uk/2...lican.html.

Don't think in my approach i'm taking your position lightly or underestimate the value of your private study and thinking I don't; even if sometimes I can come across as abrasive. When I returned after 20 years to my own RC only then did I realise how little I knew about my own faith traditions and my own misconceptions. Its hard in one life time to assimilate the scholarship of many generations, but there is growth in the journey and I wish you positive growth that you can then share with others.

You've confused me, - you don't believe in purgatory?