Burden of Proof

[Surtr]

I don't believe that just being an athiest on earth would preclude someone from heaven

You don't agree with your own bible.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. -- Deuteronomy 13:6-10

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. -- 2 John 7

Although as Catholics we have a concept of Purgatory which softens that a little but doesn't fully deal with it.

"Soften" it all you want, you can't justify infinite punishment for finite human sin.

[Simon Moon]

well i don't believe the not believing will be the issue is where the non-believing lead, and I don't believe that just being an athiest on earth would preclude someone from heaven, as for hell and the finite infinite thing yes I see the issue on that but i haven't really explored deeply the upto date theological debate on that but yes that's definately something for looking at. Although as Catholics we have a concept of Purgatory which softens that a little but doesn't fully deal with it.

The Bible says that atheism is the one unforgivable sin.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

You, like the vast majority of Christians, love to cherry pick the Bible. You ignore the parts that conflict with your own sense of ethics, or the parts that sound silly.

[FallentoReason]

The heart is just a pump, it can't know anything.

I know what are saying though.

You believe in god because you have a vague feeling that there must be "something more".

Not much of a reason when you look at it is it.

A niggle can be a powerful thing.

Just as it was a powerful thing to a believer of Zeus, Aphrodite, Apollo, Osiris, Ra, Mithra, Sol Invictus, Ixchel, Horus, Heracles, Thor, Baal, Poseidon, Hades, Isis, Krishna, Mars, Venus, Prometheus and Odin just to name a few.

Why is your warm feeling right and theirs wrong?

---

Ah, so your luck allows you to spend eternity in heaven for doing nothing more than believing without evidence, and us unlucky ones get to spend eternity in hell for a finite crime.

What a swell god...

well i don't believe the not believing will be the issue is where the non-believing lead, and I don't believe that just being an athiest on earth would preclude someone from heaven, as for hell and the finite infinite thing yes I see the issue on that but i haven't really explored deeply the upto date theological debate on that but yes that's definately something for looking at. Although as Catholics we have a concept of Purgatory which softens that a little but doesn't fully deal with it.

I've always wanted an infinite stock of pavlova in heaven. Could you please tell the Pope to add that into the Catholic Bible?

As for "softening" the blow... why are you Catholics meddling with God's absolute moral system as if you're running the place (oh wait..). The dirty sinner didn't believe in Jesus therefore it's eternal damnation. Or is there a "warm feeling" telling you that might be a little harsh? Why do you think that is?

[kingofs]

Some Questions for Atheists
Is energy unable to be created or destroyed? if yes then does that do away with Bertrand Russell’s argument on Causation?
Is the human only a physical being by all scientific tests so far? If Yes then is it most likely that the human mind then is only a physical construct? If yes is it a finite thing?
Is energy a physical thing? If yes as E=mc2 suggests Then is there a physical thing that is infinite at least by the measurement of time if not by quantity?
Is our being made out of energy? If yes then is it only a finite amount of energy based on quantity?
There are current theories that our universe is only a single universe in a bubble within an infinite energy soup. If this is so, and it is possible for a finite amount of energy to be intelligent and self-aware, is it possible for infinite energy to be infinitely intelligent and self-aware?
Do we as finite energy creatures manipulate energy around us for our own purposes? If yes is it not possible for an infinite energy to manipulate energy for its purposes?
If you have an infinite intelligence that can neither be created nor destroyed and is able to manipulate energy as it saw fit what would you call this infinite thing?

[Angrboda]

If you have an infinite intelligence that can neither be created nor destroyed and is able to manipulate energy as it saw fit what would you call this infinite thing?

[Surtr]

Is the human only a physical being by all scientific tests so far? If Yes then is it most likely that the human mind then is only a physical construct? If yes is it a finite thing?

Yes to all of those.

I think I can see what you want to say here. "Because the human mind is finite, something as complicated as god may lay outside of its reasoning."

Is our being made out of energy? If yes then is it only a finite amount of energy based on quantity?

I'm not quite sure, but I believe matter is only considered something that can store energy.

There are current theories that our universe is only a single universe in a bubble within an infinite energy soup.

Like what?

If this is so, and it is possible for a finite amount of energy to be intelligent and self-aware, is it possible for infinite energy to be infinitely intelligent and self-aware?

Yes.

Do we as finite energy creatures manipulate energy around us for our own purposes? If yes is it not possible for an infinite energy to manipulate energy for its purposes?

Sure. That, however, sounds like a deistic argument, doesn't it?

If you have an infinite intelligence that can neither be created nor destroyed and is able to manipulate energy as it saw fit what would you call this infinite thing?

I would call him Satanbama the homosexual liberal muslim. Fucking with the Christians and all, you know.

But know you have to prove how all this evolves into "The Christian god exists".

[FallentoReason]

Some Questions for Atheists
Is energy unable to be created or destroyed? if yes then does that do away with Bertrand Russell’s argument on Causation?
Is the human only a physical being by all scientific tests so far? If Yes then is it most likely that the human mind then is only a physical construct? If yes is it a finite thing?
Is energy a physical thing? If yes as E=mc2 suggests Then is there a physical thing that is infinite at least by the measurement of time if not by quantity?
Is our being made out of energy? If yes then is it only a finite amount of energy based on quantity?
There are current theories that our universe is only a single universe in a bubble within an infinite energy soup. If this is so, and it is possible for a finite amount of energy to be intelligent and self-aware, is it possible for infinite energy to be infinitely intelligent and self-aware?
Do we as finite energy creatures manipulate energy around us for our own purposes? If yes is it not possible for an infinite energy to manipulate energy for its purposes?
If you have an infinite intelligence that can neither be created nor destroyed and is able to manipulate energy as it saw fit what would you call this infinite thing?

Let's stay on topic with the thread...

You believe that a woman took a bite out of an apple which in turn threw the world into chaos therefore a Jewish man was nailed to a bit of wood so that mankind might once again be in relationship with the monster that started all of this in the first place. Prove it.

Hint: your proof might want to cover topics such as 1) show that the Pentateuch was in fact written by Moses and not 5 different authors according to current theories 2) show that the Gospels were in fact written by the men bearing the names on them and not randoms spewing forth hearsay nonsense 3) show that the Jesus of the Bible even existed as described.

[paultakgu]

I thought of posting this in the Philosophy section but since it seems to be quite an important part of many discussions in this section I put it here, I hope no one objects.

As a request from the end of this paragraph on which should not be an issue for most of this thread the word God or gods or anything else that even aludes to these concepts is BANNED from this thread. Please don't join the thread if you can't manage this.

An axiom is a premise or starting point of reasoning. As classically conceived, an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy.

Accepted without controversy. Is this even possible? Alot of time controversy is avoided for the sake of "going along with the crowd" "self preservation if you will to mask what he/she is truly thinking"

From this defination " The burden of proof belongs to the person making a claim" is not an axiom and therefore needs to be proved as it is not accepted as true without controversy.

If anyone is unhappy with this definition of an Axiom then we can discuss which definition of Axiom we will use to continue the discussion otherwise if we are ok with the axiom definition I have given then can you show that the statement " The burden of proof belongs to the person making a claim" is an axion remember try to keep the explain simple for us less well versed in the field. ( me )

[The Grand Nudger]

Some Questions for Atheists
Is energy unable to be created or destroyed? if yes then does that do away with Bertrand Russell’s argument on Causation?

As far as we know energy is neither created nor destroyed. You'll have to be more specific for the next part, as Russel obsrservations and arguments on causation are fairly hefty. What, specifically, would you like to discuss?

Is the human only a physical being by all scientific tests so far?

So far, yeah.

If Yes then is it most likely that the human mind then is only a physical construct?

That's all we have any evidence for, yep.

If yes is it a finite thing?

We do appear to be mortal, yep.

Is energy a physical thing? If yes as E=mc2 suggests Then is there a physical thing that is infinite at least by the measurement of time if not by quantity?

Yep, it's a "physical thing". You're staring to go off the rails at this point though, as "physical things" is just a description of energy in a specific state.

Is our being made out of energy? If yes then is it only a finite amount of energy based on quantity?

Yep, every thing that you can hold or touch or see etc is made out of energy in some state so far as we know. Yes, it's a finite amount of energy in any specific case.

There are current theories that our universe is only a single universe in a bubble within an infinite energy soup. If this is so, and it is possible for a finite amount of energy to be intelligent and self-aware, is it possible for infinite energy to be infinitely intelligent and self-aware?

Obviosuly it;s possible for a finite amount of energy to be self aware and intelligent, here we are. Unfortunately for your proposition it isn't simply the presence of energy but its arrangement and state that seem to affect this whole "aware and intelligent business"...a few questions back you threw a wheel, now the entire train is -predictably- coming off the tracks.

Do we as finite energy creatures manipulate energy around us for our own purposes? If yes is it not possible for an infinite energy to manipulate energy for its purposes?

We sure do, see above.

If you have an infinite intelligence that can neither be created nor destroyed and is able to manipulate energy as it saw fit what would you call this infinite thing?

I'd call it the sort of shit you imagined but cannot demonstrate. A consequence of that wheel you threw. I'm guessing that you'd call it a god, which would be unfortunate.

[Simon Moon]

Some Questions for Atheists
Is energy unable to be created or destroyed? if yes then does that do away with Bertrand Russell’s argument on Causation?
Is the human only a physical being by all scientific tests so far? If Yes then is it most likely that the human mind then is only a physical construct? If yes is it a finite thing?
Is energy a physical thing? If yes as E=mc2 suggests Then is there a physical thing that is infinite at least by the measurement of time if not by quantity?
Is our being made out of energy? If yes then is it only a finite amount of energy based on quantity?
There are current theories that our universe is only a single universe in a bubble within an infinite energy soup. If this is so, and it is possible for a finite amount of energy to be intelligent and self-aware, is it possible for infinite energy to be infinitely intelligent and self-aware?
Do we as finite energy creatures manipulate energy around us for our own purposes? If yes is it not possible for an infinite energy to manipulate energy for its purposes?
If you have an infinite intelligence that can neither be created nor destroyed and is able to manipulate energy as it saw fit what would you call this infinite thing?

I'll bet you believe you actually created a valid syllogism, where the conclusion that follows from your premises is "therefore God exists", right?

Sorry to break it to you, but you did not.

Rhythm breaks it down very well. Your conclusion is nothing but an unsupported assertion that does no follow from any of your premises.