A documentary on the Roman empire

[Minimalist]

Commerce. Political stability. Engineering. As has been noted in 150 AD a person could begin a journey in Upper Egypt and travel on maintained roads that bridged rivers, with inns, using a common currency, without a need for passports all the way to the North Sea.

That cannot be done now.

One can play the historical "what if" game endlessly. Had Rome not fallen and the sewers not collapsed into disrepair perhaps the Black Death would not have wiped out half of Europe.

Remember, xtians called bathing a sin.

http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/why...-was-a-sin

[Justtristo]

Depending on if Christianity managed to become the religion of the Roman Empire, if not, then yes.

Because Rome did endure in the East as the Byzantine Empire, however it never went through an scientific revolution. Despite having much more access to ancient scientific works than the west had.

That was because the Christians had no interest in ancient science or it's works. Indeed they were opposed to it, there are New Testament verses which condemn science (1 Timothy 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 1:22 for example). This is because they unlike their modern counterparts saw it's discoveries directly contradicting scripture.

You are reading too much into it. It was capitalism that prompted and supported industrial revolution, not the dark ages. West was not the only civilization showing signs of advancement to capitalism before the 18th century. The Chinese was moving along its own capitalist path during 11-12th century. The west was simply lucky in that it was not overrun by the Mongol invasion before capitalism moved very far along.

I am not terribly familiar with Chinese history to make any observations to be honest. However the Greco-Roman world in the first centuries of the 1st millennium CE was pretty close to an scientific revolution. Richard Carrier in his talks I have watched, talked about how these ancient scientists were using the same methodology that modern scientists use to come to their discoveries. That would not be surprising, given the following rationalist, skeptic philosophical schools (Epicureanism and Stoicism) had among the educated classes in the Greco-Roman world.

It would be until the 17th and 18th centuries when rationalism would have such a following even among the educated classes. That was the same time the scientific revolution and the enlightenment after that occurred. It is also logical than an industrial revolution would followed a scientific one.

[Ethan1581]

Were they invented by the Romans? I know in popular 'History' these things are said to be Roman, but that is only that it is used as a shorthand for meaning the Mediterranean and southern European area, If you delve into all these so called inventions you will find they are invented in areas before they came under Roman control.
The centralist Roman state have very little ability to pass knowledge along. Look at the Arts the sophistication of late Greek sculpture, and then the inevitable downward spiral of Roman art. Where sculptors produced nothing new just endless copies of Greek originals at best.
Think about the heights of Greek philosophy the Romans took, and the abject poverty of christian dogma they passed on.

Decline,decline,decline.

Could you please provide some links to back this up?

[Something completely different]

I had the luck to grow up amongs remains of the roman empire, I actualy was born in a city which was founded by the Romans: Vienna, then Vindobona.

Roman history was pumped into my brain from the earliest days of school.

[CapnAwesome]

It was also mentioned in this thread about slaves. The Roman conception of a slave was something you owned,and you could do with as you willed. Early medieval was that a surf belonged to the land, and by owning the land you had duties to look after it and those on it. Yes a few rich men might debate issues, but we are not talking about anything near the same conception of what the word means.

I'm just curious, are you a member of the SCA? I've only ever heard these type of views expressed once and that was from an SCA nut.

[jonb]

I'm just curious, are you a member of the SCA? I've only ever heard these type of views expressed once and that was from an SCA nut.

SCA may refer to:
[edit]Organizations

Schuylkill Canal Association, a non-governmental organization that maintains a section of historical canal in Pennsylvania
Scottish Canoe Association
Secular Coalition for America
Sexual Compulsives Anonymous
Société en commandite par actions, a type of corporation in France
Society for Creative Anachronism, an international living history group
Student Catholic Action, a religious student organization in the Philippines
Student Conservation Association, a Non-Profit Conservation Service Organization
Suez Canal Authority, a state-owned authority which owns and maintains the Suez Canal
Supreme Council of Antiquities, the Egyptian antiquities service
Svenska Cellulosa Aktiebolaget, a global hygiene and paper company
Sydney Catchment Authority
Sydney College of the Arts
Swedish Committee for Afghanistan
Swiss Cricket Association

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCA

Honesty I do not know which you are implying I am a member of.

[CapnAwesome]

Honesty I do not know which you are implying I am a member of.

Then that should be a safe bet that the answer is no eh? But I was referring to the society of creative anachronism, which not only is the first google result, but the only one of those listed that pertains to history. They are basically goofy medievalists who think the dark ages were this glorious time.

[Minimalist]

the dark ages were this glorious time.

Not so bad for the hand holding the whip....but then, for them it never really is.

[jonb]

Roman Empire.
Your answers are in the very responses you give to me that are trying to hold on to the old model.

From Minimalist

Commerce. Political stability. Engineering. As has been noted in 150 AD a person could begin a journey in Upper Egypt and travel on maintained roads that bridged rivers, with inns, using a common currency, without a need for passports all the way to the North Sea.

Of coins; Yes but that as true both before and after the Roman Empire. The idea that only the coins of the realm could be used for exchange and the power to enforce that is of a much latter date. You will find archaeologically collections of coins, currency from all over the place.
Being English before decimalisation, many of the coins we used had names which referred to their origins.
Penny; very old coin basic unit of currency
Florin; two old shillings (I have forgotten where the shilling was first produced.) the ten new pence coin was a unit minted in Florence hence the name and prised for the consistency of the metals used.
Crown, Dollar, Mark. Terms used for five shillings or a quarter of a pound. and the pound which gives the thing away, coins were weights of metal. Which were stamped as a mark of authenticity to show they were of the right metal and weight.
Passports? look at how recent a development they are. If you think that a trader would be any safer in the boundaries of Roman control than outside it you will find little evidence, certainly the trade routes of north and eastern Europe seem more significant. Why because roads were if you wish to trade over long distances very inefficient and long distance trade happened on water, rivers and seas. The Roman mindset of military thinking that roads were a means of travel and rivers a natural barrier, no doubt was a factor as to why they could not maintain an economy without conquest and they were destined to fail.
Roads: Roman roads, odd isn't it that this is always put forward as their great achievement. But the roads we think of as Roman were already in existence when the Romans got there. True they may have resurfaced these roads and looked after their upkeep, but that is a different thing.
When I was a boy I was taught Roman roads were far superior to anything that came after. The nice flat Roman Road surface as opposed to the cobbled streets of mediaeval towns. The facts show us Roman superiority.
However, what happens when animals are moved down the road, they shit on it and even the arching of a Roman road starts to be unable to cope with large numbers of animals needed in a town with a thriving economy. Let alone if you are rich enough to use horses as beasts of burden rather than human slaves. What you end up with is all that dirt sitting on the street as a thick, dirty layer.
However if instead of making the road surface smooth it is cobbled, what happens is that the detritus is broken up and pushed between the cobbles by wheels and other animals leaving the tops of the stones as a solid surface on which you can walk. And as the dirt has been ground down it is more easily washed away to the gutters when the rain comes.
So either the cobbled street is better technologically than the Roman road, or it is proof of a more vibrant economy, or both.

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Honesty I do not know which you are implying I am a member of.

Then that should be a safe bet that the answer is no eh? But I was referring to the society of creative anachronism, which not only is the first google result, but the only one of those listed that pertains to history. They are basically goofy medievalists who think the dark ages were this glorious time.

I put up the list as it came up and that was halfway down, anyway I am not nor have I ever been until now sullied by the accusation I am a Yank. It should therefore obvious to even a passing observer I would not be part of an Americon organisation.
I am surprised at you for trying to deliver such a low blow. There ought to be a rule against this sort of implied slurry of one's background.
If I were to belong to a group of foreign origin from the list dealing in historical matters, Maybe the Egyptian one would be of more interest to me. Did your comment contain any truth?

[popeyespappy]

I'm no historian, but I thought the idea of Medieval technological revolution vs. Classical/Roman stagnation had been debunked 40 years ago.