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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 10:49 am
(January 14, 2013 at 10:02 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I think the OP needed to be expanded to account for omniscience because for a god to be able to envision a way to stop suffering without intervening in free will, it needs to know every possible combination/outcome.
And it would have the power to tweak those outcomes down the correct, desired line. That's the thing about infinite power and knowledge; everything becomes possible, and therefore nothing is accidental.
As to John V's reply to me... what Surtr said. I can hardly be accused of slipping in what's a part of every bible, can I?
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Slipping it into a conversation on omnipotence, not into the Bible. Omniscience and omnipresence are IMO better supported Biblically than omnipotence.
Sticking to omnipotence, what do you think of this verse?
Matthew 26
39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
That Jesus says "if it be possible" indicates that there are some things impossible even for God, and so your definition of omnipotence differs from the Bible's (although as noted that's really almighty) and you're shown to be arguing against a straw man.
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 1:07 pm
(January 15, 2013 at 12:04 pm)John V Wrote: Slipping it into a conversation on omnipotence, not into the Bible. Omniscience and omnipresence are IMO better supported Biblically than omnipotence.
Sticking to omnipotence, what do you think of this verse?
Matthew 26
39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
That Jesus says "if it be possible" indicates that there are some things impossible even for God, and so your definition of omnipotence differs from the Bible's (although as noted that's really almighty) and you're shown to be arguing against a straw man.
Except that I was going from your definition, and you had no problem saying that god was almighty and all powerful. The omniscience thing is necessary for your god, even if you're willing to play semantic games with his powers to try and avoid talking about the natural consequences of his omnipotence.
And hell, for all we know, Jesus was saying "if it be possible" because even being the son of god doesn't absolve you from needing to abase oneself utterly in order to get him to do stuff for you. God kind of has a habit of screwing people over, including, as we'll later see, Jesus. Maybe the guy just has some insider knowledge about how his father works.
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm
Try actually reading up a little on the subject. A good place to start:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 1:48 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2013 at 1:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Your verse is ambiguous at best John, and I can (and have) rattled off many that directly state the belief that the authors had in this god to do absolutely anything. That you feel the need to hem in your god is only a consequence of your birth. Make him as small as you like - as long as we're entertaining your belief that some things are impossible for your god to accomplish then we have a long list of shit that fits that bill.
The bible, sticking to what it does best, cannot decide upon the abilities of it's godman - why anyone would give two shits as to how those magical powers are variously and disparately described from chapter to chapter in the first place is, frankly, a mystery to me.
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 1:51 pm
(January 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm)John V Wrote: Try actually reading up a little on the subject. A good place to start:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/
Guy, don't be condescending. I'm arguing solely in response to your own argumentation, and in doing so is how I arrived at the position I espouse. How about responding to that?
Or, if not, just explaining your own position better. Is your god omniscient, in addition to being almighty and all powerful- terms I'm still unsure whether or not they vary from being omnipotent in any meaningful way? In my book, the god as described in the bible requires omniscience, and if he packs the power to do the things that he does, and the requisite knowledge of all things (remember, he created it all!) to be accurate to the biblical god, can he really be said to not possess omnipotence?
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 2:06 pm
(January 15, 2013 at 1:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Your verse is ambiguous at best John, and I can (and have) rattled off many that directly state the belief that the authors had in this god to do absolutely anything. Yes, I could also give some - "With God, all things are possible" obviously comes to mind. That might actually be an interesting conversation. I'm mostly just badgering the guy because I'm tired of people with little knowledge trotting out trite crap.
Quote:That you feel the need to hem in your god is only a consequence of your birth.
How do you know that I feel a need? That crap irritates me too. Damn I'm grouchy today!
Quote:Make him as small as you like - as long as we're entertaining your belief that some things are impossible for your god to accomplish then we have a long list of shit that fits that bill.
Feel free to post some. If you can come up with something better than a square circle the thread might improve.
Quote:The bible, sticking to what it does best, cannot decide upon the abilities of it's godman - why anyone would give two shits as to how those magical powers are variously and disparately described from chapter to chapter in the first place is, frankly, a mystery to me.
Yet you're reading and posting to this thread. 
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 3:06 pm
(January 15, 2013 at 1:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: why anyone would give two shits as to how those magical powers are variously and disparately described from chapter to chapter in the first place is, frankly, a mystery to me.
Have you ever read a comic book?
How superman seems to have no lasers coming out of his eyes in one issue and has to take the whole book to solve something that would have taken those lasers just two squares....? And then you check the previous issue and voilá, there they are being put to good use... it's not like the S-man didn't have that particular power... It just wouldn't have made a very good plot story, would it?
The same sort of thing happens to (almost) every super-hero ever penned.... including god-man.... and god-boy.
Sometimes, it's useful to forget about a particular super-power so the plot can just move along, instead of just finishing in one go.
If the christian god wanted souls to make him company, why didn't it just create those souls right there with him, with all the required adoration built-in?
Or did it just not feel like doing it the easy way?
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 3:27 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2013 at 3:27 pm by killybob.)
(January 15, 2013 at 3:06 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If the christian god wanted souls to make him company, why didn't it just create those souls right there with him, with all the required adoration built-in?
Or did it just not feel like doing it the easy way?
Because he's (assuming he does exist) a malevolent, sadistic, cruel, psychopathic, homicidal, genocidal, filicidal, infanticidal, incompetent, petty, maniacal douche, who has no clue how fix a mess once he's made it. Or so reading the bible has told me...
I sincerely hope I have answered your question fully and accurately 
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RE: The logical consequences of omnipotence
January 15, 2013 at 3:33 pm
(January 15, 2013 at 3:27 pm)killybob Wrote: (January 15, 2013 at 3:06 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If the christian god wanted souls to make him company, why didn't it just create those souls right there with him, with all the required adoration built-in?
Or did it just not feel like doing it the easy way?
Because he's (assuming he does exist) a malevolent, sadistic, cruel, psychopathic, homicidal, genocidal, filicidal, infanticidal, incompetent, petty, maniacal douche, who has no clue how fix a mess once he's made it. Or so reading the bible has told me...
I sincerely hope I have answered your question fully and accurately
Pretty much, yes... 
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