How to effectively critique New Age ideas?

[Esquilax]

Try to get them to define 'energy' in a meaningful way.

That's the thing. Much like the biblical literalist who insists that God planted false evidence about the universe's age and origins in order to test our faith, the New Ager can claim that such energies are simply beyond the current perception of science. Granted, one could point out that if such energies existed then science would at least be able to perceive their influence on the material world, and so on. But eventually the discussion will reach the New Ager's threshold for speculative reasoning, and any further points will be met with a "well, it just doesn't work that way" or some such nonsense.

Again, like Minimalist said, the only real difference with refuting New Age ideas is that their adherents tend to be nicer about it.

Which is also why it's so hard to have a debate with this kind of person in the first place: only one party is actually having a debate.

[Confused Ape]

New Agers don't just get their ideas from Deepak Chopra. They also listen to people who are interviewed by him. I don't want to copy and paste half of my opening post for another topic here so I'll provide the link to the topic.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-16881.html

DC has interviewed Robert Lanza and a theoretical physicist called Michio Kaku.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku...mic_career

Kaku has had over 70 articles published in physics journals such as Physical Review, covering topics such as superstring theory, supergravity, supersymmetry, and hadronic physics.[6] In 1974, along with Prof. Keiji Kikkawa of Osaka University, he authored the first papers describing string theory in a field form.[7][8]
Kaku is the author of several textbooks on string theory and quantum field theory.

I've provided links to the interviews along with some quotes in my opening post. The thing is that these scientist know that DC is a New Age guru but they appeared on his show.

[Zone]

I would just say it's a bit fluffy, wishful thinking and doesn't really represent real life or the human condition as it is. Another thing is apparently you can achieve anything you want in life through positive thinking. If something bad happens to you it's because you weren't generating enough positive energy so it's entirely your own fault. Tell that to the people Dafur region in the Sudan or whatever, they're not generating enough positive energy to manifest into their lives. And there is Deepak Chopras brand of quantum woo, healing crystals, Uri Geller and people making shed loads of money from a load of bollocks. At least traditional religion has some class, some ancient tradition, a bit of intelletual philosophy.

[jonb]

I have to disagree with you zone, because somebody has been a pratt for a long time does not mean they are better than somebody who has only been a pratt for a short while.

[Confused Ape]

And there is Deepak Chopras brand of quantum woo, healing crystals, Uri Geller and people making shed loads of money from a load of bollocks.

Have just found this about Eugene Wigner

He became interested in the Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism, particularly its ideas of the universe as an all pervading consciousness. In his collection of essays Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays, he commented "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness

He had good, scientific qualifications (from the introduction to the above wiki article) -

Eugene Paul "E. P." Wigner, ForMemRS[1] (Hungarian: Wigner Jenő Pál; November 17, 1902 – January 1, 1995), was a Hungarian American theoretical physicist and mathematician.
He received a share of the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963 "for his contributions to the theory of the atomic nucleus and the elementary particles, particularly through the discovery and application of fundamental symmetry principles

Here are two living qualified physicists who are into New Age things.

Amit Goswami is a retired professor of physics who has the view that consciousness, not matter, is the ground of existence. I've linked to his page on Amazon so people can click on the links to his books to see what they are about. I suspect that this is where a lot of New Agers along with Deepak Chopra are getting their information from.

Fred Alan Wolf

Fred Alan Wolf (born December 3, 1934) is an American theoretical physicist specializing in quantum physics and the relationship between physics and consciousness.

His theories about the interrelation of consciousness and quantum physics were described by Newsweek in 2007 as "on the fringes of mainstream science."[3]

At least traditional religion has some class, some ancient tradition, a bit of intelletual philosophy.

Traditional religion can be very dull compared to what physicists come up with.

PS: Just an an idea about the best way to critique New Age ideas. If anyone has a degree in physics they can challenge Amit Goswami and Fred Alan Wolf.

[Cato]

Enough of this Lanza/Chopra bullshit.

Biocentrism Demystified:
http://nirmukta.com/2009/12/14/biocentri...-universe/

[Zone]

PS: Just an an idea about the best way to critique New Age ideas. If anyone has a degree in physics they can challenge Amit Goswami and Fred Alan Wolf.

Quantum mechanics is just the physics of the very small which works very differently from what we understand of Newtonian physics on the larger scales. We haven't been able to unify these two yet. But just because it's very strange it doesn't mean there's anything mystical going on it's still just physics and understandable natural laws.

[Confused Ape]

Enough of this Lanza/Chopra bullshit.

Biocentrism Demystified:
http://nirmukta.com/2009/12/14/biocentri...-universe/

I didn't say that Biocentrism is true. I was just pointing out that New Agers get their ideas from scientists who appear on DC's show. When the scientist concerned agrees with something that DC says the New Agers will disregard any criticism of things they want to hear. They'll also disregard any criticism of respected physicists like Schroedinger saying that the universe runs on consciousness.

Quantum mechanics is just the physics of the very small which works very differently from what we understand of Newtonian physics on the larger scales. We haven't been able to unify these two yet. But just because it's very strange it doesn't mean there's anything mystical going on it's still just physics and understandable natural laws.

Did you take a look at any of Amit Goswami's books on Amazon? Quote from his Amazon page.

Goswami has written six other popular books based on his research on quantum physics and consciousness. In The Visionary Window, Goswami demonstrated how science and spirituality could be integrated. In Physics of the Soul he developed a theory of survival after death and reincarnation. His book Quantum Creativity is a tour de force instruction about how to engage in both outer and inner creativity. Goswami's book, The Quantum Doctor integrates conventional and alternative medicine.

@cato123

I found something very interesting in that article you gave a link to.

We can safely assume that Lanza and Chopra are more concerned with the implications of Darwinian evolution on the nature of the human ego, and not on the theory of evolution by natural selection.

Both Chopra and Lanza seem to be disillusioned by the perceived emptiness of a non-directional evolutionary reality.

Unfortunately I can't add that to my opening post in my own topic because the time for editing has long gone.

[Cato]

I didn't say that Biocentrism is true. I was just pointing out that New Agers get their ideas from scientists who appear on DC's show. When the scientist concerned agrees with something that DC says the New Agers will disregard any criticism of things they want to hear. They'll also disregard any criticism of respected physicists like Schroedinger saying that the universe runs on consciousness.

Sorry Ape. I didn't mean to leave the impression that I thought your post was in agreement with Lanza's claims. I wanted to provide the link in the spirit of answering the OP question on how to effectively critique such claims.

[Zone]

[quote='Confused Ape' pid='392937' dateline='1359405704']

[quote]Goswami has written six other popular books based on his research on quantum physics and consciousness. In The Visionary Window, Goswami demonstrated how science and spirituality could be integrated. In Physics of the Soul he developed a theory of survival after death and reincarnation. His book Quantum Creativity is a tour de force instruction about how to engage in both outer and inner creativity. Goswami's book, The Quantum Doctor integrates conventional and alternative medicine.[/quote]

In the words of Brian Cox after his lecture on quantum physics "No mumbo jumbo, no woo, just beautiful physics". But if by spirituality you mean the feeling you get when looking at a star filled sky, the beauty of a sunset, attaining inner peace and tranquility and being kind to others then you can/should do all that anyway. As for the all "big questions" those questions are open, you can just appreciate the mystery of the unknown. If I end up being reincarnated or floating about in some other worldly plane of quantum mechanical reality I don't think it really affects my life or anything I do anyway. It's not something to base your life on.