Why I hate the protection from the law which churches give their members.

[Something completely different]

Pastor Hoff was a German evangelical priest born in then east prussia, after the second world war during investigations which were conducted to put on trial former war criminals he came under the suspicion of having participated in several warcrimes in the soviet union.
The investigation had to be stopped due to to the death of the suspect and the case was never brought to a court of law. The investigation started because of a letter he wrote to his suppiriors on 29. September 1943 in which he wrote that he:

"in Sowjetrussland eine erhebliche Anzahl von Juden, nämlich viele Hunderte, habe liquidieren helfen".

"have helped in soviet russia to liquidate a great number of jews, namely hundrets."

When confronted with this by his church he claimed to have lied in order to prove his loyalty with his supiriors. He was therefor suspended from churchservices by the german evangelical church. He protested claiming that he was one of the first pastors who protested against antisemitism, yet whitnesses could provide a recorded speech during a cermon from him on the 10th anniversary of Hitlers rise to power in which he preached "May we destroy the jews with the help of god!". Yet after years of rehabilitation he would regain his possition again and practice as a priest, by possing as a repentant sinner.


Recently an investigation into the matter revailed that soviet whitnesses saw and testified to seeing him participate and plan warcrimes in the russian town of Klimowitschi.
It was shown that the brigade in which he was stationed was one of those which had the job of fighting "resistance" in conquered lands, which also included the liquidation of jews.

His history with the national socialist movement is well recorded. He came to berlin in 1930 were at first he went to court to sue a woman who claimed he was the father of her child.
He started holding cermons in which he praised the national socialists and was praised by Göbbels personaly. Later he would hold his cermons mainly infront of members of the SA. By the outbreak of the war he was sent to the eastern front.


It is certain that in this case a warcriminal avoided legal action against him due to his possition as a member and preacher in a church.
It is well known that after world war 2, several warcriminals within the churches were untouched because the allies considered them to be a importent tool in post war germany, thereby the "denazification" never really took part in german churches.


religion is an excuse to commit the worst crimes and get away with them.


http://einestages.spiegel.de/s/tb/27561/...-hoff.html

[pgrimes15]

And then he became Pope ?

[Something completely different]

And then he became Pope ?

lol

that would have been it.


The last pope is from what is called the "Flakhelfer Generation" here, which means "flak helper generation" - that generation was indoctrinated in the youth camps and was used between 1944-1945 as helpers and soldiers in military operations.

My grandfather was part of that generation, which is one of the reasons why I didn`t really approve of the last pope.
Since almoust everyone I knew from the "flak helper generation" still had traces of that indoctrination within him or was a rightwinger or even a outright nazi.

[Dee Dee Ramone]

My grandfather testified on some tv-documentary that at his church youth club (+/- 1933) club there were two opinions;

1 the jews killed Jesus, so they get what they deserve.
2 they are the chosen people, so it's gods plan.

He never lost faith, but he quit church later in his life. Already before the war, he'd decided that it was the devil doing those things.

[fr0d0]

religion is an excuse to commit the worst crimes and get away with them.

Can't disagree there

[Dee Dee Ramone]

In this specific case the stability of post-war germany (and allies pragmatism) was more or less the external excuse and not so much church inbreed reasoning. So no, as I read this it was never an excuse to commit these crimes...but it was a ticket out.

[John V]

Either this was a rare exception, or we can conclude that the war criminals convicted weren't church members, which is interesting.

[Something completely different]

Either this was a rare exception, or we can conclude that the war criminals convicted weren't church members, which is interesting.

He was an exception because fashism didnt gain as much popularity in protestant regions as in catholic regions.

Yet catholicism and fashism was deeply conected.




And I would like to know more about your "conclusion" do you have a list of warcriminals or other special information?

[John V]

He was an exception because fashism didnt gain as much popularity in protestant regions as in catholic regions.

Yet catholicism and fashism was deeply conected.

And I would like to know more about your "conclusion" do you have a list of warcriminals or other special information?

No, it's logic. You can't have it both ways. If lots of convicted war criminals were church members, than this is an exception. If this isn't an exception, then most convicted war criminals weren't church members. ( Another possibility would be that there were lots of war criminals who weren't convicted due to church membership, but I'm going by your own words that there were only "several" such cases, and that those also had practical purposes.)

[Something completely different]

No, it's logic. You can't have it both ways. If lots of convicted war criminals were church members, than this is an exception. If this isn't an exception, then most convicted war criminals weren't church members. ( Another possibility would be that there were lots of war criminals who weren't convicted due to church membership, but I'm going by your own words that there were only "several" such cases, and that those also had practical purposes.)

What are you talking about?!

1.
Most ww2 warcrimnals werent convicted but escaped juristiction and trial.

2.
The second possibility is the one complained about in the article - that man is not some weird exception as you interpreted into that article wrongly. It is an example which shows how churchmembers were not prosecuted because the church was needed in post ww2 Germany

dont be cheeky, when I write several I mean several, so here`S some other cases which show the deep conection between catholicism and fashism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hudal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland%..._(Austria)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelbert_Dollfuss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unione_Nazionale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity


Ohhh, and here is the flag chosen by the "german christians" an organisation in which all christian sects were represented:




He was everything but an exception!

Now show me the examples of atheist nazi warcriminals and how atheism helped national socialism rise.



See, I hate vague nonsence! All that counts are facts!