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Xenophobia?
#21
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 21, 2013 at 3:43 pm)Tiberius Wrote: What are you on about? Of course they can, but that has nothing to do with this issue.

The problem is not with immigrants who decide to work and pay taxes; it is with those who come here and do not work or pay taxes, but still use (free) public services. Should people be able to leave their country of birth and exploit the welfare systems of other countries just because we belong to the EU? I don't think that is very fair.

You don't think so? If we're talking about immigrants who come to your country - become citizens, find work, or don't....I can't imagine what the problem might be with a citizen availing themselves of the services a government provides.

Neither do I (think it's fair) - and? Where does that lead?

Here you have to at least have a ss number. Of course you can always defraud the system - but criminals do criminal things, amiright? I'm assuming that the services you're talking about don't have those sorts of checks and/or there is no concept of "defrauding the system". All of this also assumes that said immigrant did not become a citizen, of course, because if they did - i don't see the problem.

Now, there are some things here that we don't really run checks for - but simultaneously aren't free services to anybody anyway. Like, say, a sugarcane worker that happens to be a migrant and/or undocumented "alien" gets dropped at the ER door by a crew leader with a rattlesnake bite. They'll go ahead and treat him anyway (I suppose because the alternative is to let him possibly die at the ER steps).


Quote:In the UK, they actually exist. Some of them are extremely cocky. In the newspapers a few months ago they had an interview with a couple who had a baby and freely admitted that they weren't even looking for work, because their parents had paid taxes all their lives.

I'm skeptical Tibs. I think that they probably exist very much in articles (like they did here - until they didn't), but I don't know how much water that the idea holds outside the arena of influencing public opinion. Who knows, I could be dead wrong, but previous experience with the notion of "wellfare queens" has left a horrible taste of dishonesty (not, mind you, on your part - but on the part of those who peddle the tales) in my mouth. We could trade stories all day, of course. I have a buddy who stayed on unemployment for the max allowable timeframe because he could not find a job that could support his family (after losing a job that could) - so it made very little sense for him to work at McDonalds to make an ideological point. At some point, I can't remember how long into unemployment it was, he just stopped looking. There was nothing there, nothing was going to materialize, he knew it, everybody knew it, and he couldn't aford the gas he spent looking anymore anyway. His choice was to continue cashing his "Obama-Money" (my friend qualifies for just about every negative stereotypical epitaph you could hurl at him btw - wears them all like a badge of pride) or to lose that check in return for a minimum wage job that simply could not shelter or feed his family. He made the smart decision, and stayed on the dole. Is he a welfare king?

(he did end up catching a break, got a ok-ish job filing paperwork for a medical insurance co- if they'd have let him, he'd have stayed on unemployment until something else came up, he's stuck moving his wife and kids from one friends house to the next right now until something better comes along)

My wife and I get WIC, foodstamps, free healthcare for our kids, we both pay about 10% costs on some medical this and that's ourselves - and we own our own respective businesses. We pay taxes, but we get every dime back and then some at the end of the year. Are we welfare royalty?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 21, 2013 at 8:37 pm)cratehorus Wrote: there is almost no welfare fraud existing in any country anywhere
Factually untrue. The estimated value of overpayments due to fraud and error in 2011/2012 was £3.4 billion.

Source: http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/in...raud_error

That figure does not cover people claiming on the NHS.

Quote:most immigrants contribute more to a country's economy than it's actual average citizen, the simple fact that your nation chooses to disparage an entirerace of people based on the headline/tabloid story of one vaccous individual just proves how inept and deceptive your government has become, maybe a fresh dip in the gene pool is exactly what you folks need.............
1) I never said that our government makes decisions based on headlines / tabloid stories. Nor did I say I made my decision based on such stories. The only reason I mentioned it was because Rhythm said that welfare queens did not exist in his country. In our country, the existence of welfare queens is well known and documented in various media outlets.

2) As you can see from the source above, the government does its own research into benefit fraud. Policy is based on that research.

3) This is not about whether immigrants contribute more to a country's economy than its actual average citizen. This is about jobs being given to immigrants over actual citizens. This is always going to be a problem when the system is set up so that anyone in the EU can legally work anywhere in the EU. The people who live in less wealthy countries are going to move to more wealthy countries to find work, which takes jobs from the people who already live in those wealthy countries (and who are citizens of them).
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#23
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 22, 2013 at 11:06 am)Tiberius Wrote: The people who live in less wealthy countries are going to move to more wealthy countries to find work, which takes jobs from the people who already live in those wealthy countries (and who are citizens of them).

And how exactly will they steal, no, sorry, take that job, if the "true" citizen is better or equally qualified than the immigrant?
But the eternal dilemma - how can we be happy amid the unhappiness of others?
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#24
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 22, 2013 at 11:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You don't think so? If we're talking about immigrants who come to your country - become citizens, find work, or don't....I can't imagine what the problem might be with a citizen availing themselves of the services a government provides.
The problem isn't with immigrants who become citizens or find work. It's with those who don't. I thought I made that clear.

Quote:Neither do I (think it's fair) - and? Where does that lead?
Not sure what you mean? It's not fair; it should be stopped.

Quote:Here you have to at least have a ss number. Of course you can always defraud the system - but criminals do criminal things, amiright? I'm assuming that the services you're talking about don't have those sorts of checks and/or there is no concept of "defrauding the system". All of this also assumes that said immigrant did not become a citizen, of course, because if they did - i don't see the problem.
When I go to the hospital, I usually just have to give my home address, and that is it. I don't believe there are any further checks. I might be mistaken though, so if someone has any other information on this I'd be happy to correct myself.

There is a concept of defrauding the system. If I'm not entitled to benefits, but I still claim them, that's fraud. Likewise, if I go to an NHS hospital but I'm not entitled to free healthcare, I'm defrauding the system.

Quote:Now, there are some things here that we don't really run checks for - but simultaneously aren't free services to anybody anyway. Like, say, a sugarcane worker that happens to be a migrant and/or undocumented "alien" gets dropped at the ER door by a crew leader with a rattlesnake bite. They'll go ahead and treat him anyway (I suppose because the alternative is to let him possibly die at the ER steps).
Accidents and emergencies are a wholly different matter IMO. No good person is going to ignore someone who is in need of medical attention but doesn't have insurance / isn't covered by free healthcare. Exceptions can be made. However, one should not exploit those exceptions to the extent that they become fraudulent.


Quote:I'm skeptical Tibs. I think that they probably exist very much in articles (like they did here - until they didn't), but I don't know how much water that the idea holds outside the arena of influencing public opinion. Who knows, I could be dead wrong, but previous experience with the notion of "wellfare queens" has left a horrible taste of dishonesty (not, mind you, on your part - but on the part of those who peddle the tales) in my mouth. We could trade stories all day, of course. I have a buddy who stayed on unemployment for the max allowable timeframe because he could not find a job that could support his family (after losing a job that could) - so it made very little sense for him to work at McDonalds to make an ideological point. At some point, I can't remember how long into unemployment it was, he just stopped looking. There was nothing there, nothing was going to materialize, he knew it, everybody knew it, and he couldn't aford the gas he spent looking anymore anyway. His choice was to continue cashing his "Obama-Money" (my friend qualifies for just about every negative stereotypical epitaph you could hurl at him btw - wears them all like a badge of pride) or to lose that check in return for a minimum wage job that simply could not shelter or feed his family. He made the smart decision, and stayed on the dole. Is he a welfare king?
I think the fact that these people are open about it in newspapers demonstrates there is a problem in this country. I'm not saying every person on welfare is abusing the system; I'm not saying the problem is even that large, but it is a problem and to deny it despite all the evidence (not saying you are; being skeptical is fine) is silly.

If your friend is taking the minimum amount of welfare that he needs to survive, he isn't a welfare king in my opinion. Welfare kings/queens abuse the system to their own financial gain. I'm talking about people who continue to use disability benefits despite the fact that they are now perfectly healthy. Stuff like that.

There was another story I read the other day, where a couple earned £50,000 a year in benefits because the husband was on disability (he suffers from headaches once every few weeks apparently), and the wife had become a registered carer for him (despite the fact that he can look after himself for 99% of the time). She still earned her unemployment benefits, child benefits, etc. Those people are welfare Kings/Queens.

Quote:My wife and I get WIC, foodstamps, free healthcare for our kids, we both pay about 10% costs on some medical this and that's ourselves - and we own our own respective businesses. Are we welfare royalty?
Are you exploiting government welfare and receiving more than you should be receiving? Do you actively look for more ways to get more benefits? If so, then yes you are. I highly doubt you are doing that; you seem like an honest guy to me.

(February 22, 2013 at 11:16 am)Vera Wrote: And how exactly will they steal, no, sorry, take that job, if the "true" citizen is better or equally qualified than the immigrant?
In a perfect society, the better qualified person will get the job. Unfortunately, for various reasons this does not happen in the real world.

Here is a legitimate source (The Times is a very respected and influential newspaper in the UK). http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/polit...694568.ece
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#25
RE: Xenophobia?
Is benefit fraud the bar then for being crowned a lord of welfareland? We have plenty of that here. Alot of it has to do with people having jobs but not reporting it so they can get both checks for as long as possible (I've been told that eventually this gets found out - provided that they don't work under the table - and that they then get sent a bill and/or court notice).

If no benefit fraud is occurring, does that disqualify someone as a welfare king/queen? For example, the people in the article cited were very open about their situation and intentions. Were they cut off? Was any fraud involved?

(and no Tibs, lol, I don't seek ways to defraud the system, but I do wring every dime out of it that I have a claim to, would be ignorance not to do so)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#26
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 22, 2013 at 11:26 am)Tiberius Wrote: In a perfect society, the better qualified person will get the job. Unfortunately, for various reasons this does not happen in the real world.

Here is a legitimate source (The Times is a very respected and influential newspaper in the UK). http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/polit...694568.ece
Well, you learn something new every day. So, The Times is a British newspaper? And I take it that it's a good one? Is it better than The Sun? Because that's my favourite.

Also, the article is only available in its entirety to subscribers, so it doesn't prove anything.

Anyway, all I'm saying is, paranoia is not a nice place to live.
But the eternal dilemma - how can we be happy amid the unhappiness of others?
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#27
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 22, 2013 at 11:34 am)Rhythm Wrote: Is benefit fraud the bar then for being crowned a lord of welfareland? We have plenty of that here. Alot of it has to do with people having jobs but not reporting it so they can get both checks for as long as possible (I've been told that eventually this gets found out - provided that they don't work under the table - and that they then get sent a bill and/or court notice).
I'm not even sure there are "official" definitions for what a welfare queen/king is. In my opinion, committing benefit fraud does not automatically make you a welfare queen/king. A lot of welfare queen/kings commit benefit fraud in some way, but some of them legitimately get the money (they just exploit services in ways that honest people would not). For instance, having a lot of children in order to get moved into larger and more luxurious accommodation by councils.

The young couple I mentioned in the report were idiots and hopefully will get caught. The guy was claiming jobseekers allowance but not going out to look for jobs. You aren't supposed to do that.

Quote:If no benefit fraud is occurring, does that disqualify someone as a welfare king/queen? For example, the people in the article cited were very open about their situation and intentions. Were they cut off? Was any fraud involved?
I haven't followed up on them, but I presume an investigation was launched, given that they were abusing the system.

Quote:(and no Tibs, lol, I don't seek ways to defraud the system, but I do wring every dime out of it that I have a claim to, would be ignorance not to do so)
Totally agree with you. If the money is available and you have a legitimate claim to it, use it. I object only when people start altering their situation to gain extra benefits, or keep claiming benefits when they aren't entitled to them anymore.

(February 22, 2013 at 11:49 am)Vera Wrote: Well, you learn something new every day. So, The Times is a British newspaper? And I take it that it's a good one? Is it better than The Sun? Because that's my favourite.
The Sun is a piece of crap.

Quote:Also, the article is only available in its entirety to subscribers, so it doesn't prove anything.
Sorry, but the presence of a paywall does not refute an article's claims. Have you looked at most sources on Wikipedia? They often cite books which you would have to buy in order to check the fact. That doesn't somehow mean the fact isn't true.

Quote:Anyway, all I'm saying is, paranoia is not a nice place to live.
Right, and you haven't provided any evidence that I'm being paranoid. I've cited respectable newspapers and government reports which suggest that benefit fraud is real, and that immigrants have been (until recently) taking a larger number of jobs than British people.
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#28
RE: Xenophobia?
(February 22, 2013 at 11:54 am)Tiberius Wrote: The Sun is a piece of crap.

Well, you just shattered everything that was good and innocent in me. Dodgy
But the eternal dilemma - how can we be happy amid the unhappiness of others?
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#29
RE: Xenophobia?



I once had a social worker who was responsible for certifying that I was eligible to receive welfare encourage me to defraud the system. He even gave me step-by-step instruction on how to do it. True story. (And yes, I did commit welfare fraud like he suggested.)

What I'm sensing here is a lot of ideological distortion. Looking at an issue, and without understanding the full details, overlaying a moral story on top of the cherry picked details to bolster an ideological agenda. I see this a lot in people who argue that this or that person with a mental illness should be able to work (sometimes as bad as the stereotyped, "why don't they just pick themselves up by their bootstraps"). I myself have been called "a waste" and "a drain on society" by otherwise reasonable people; at the time, it was largely just random lashing out on account of something I'd said, but the attitude is pervasive, and I deal with it a lot. (And this from people who know me well and know what I go through.) There's an ideological strain which seeks to blame and castigate the weak and the sick, blaming them, accusing them of being immoral in their weakness, and faulting them for not being able to take care of themselves. The prejudice comes first; the rationalizations come later. (This moralizing of economic disadvantage seems to be a drumbeat among Libertarians.) I don't really care to enter this discussion, largely because I don't care to do the necessary research and documentation, but I rather doubt the points of a Tiberius. I've seen it too many times and refuted it too many times to take such claims on face value. As a more or less permanent member of the underclass, the prejudice is just one more handicap I have to deal with, in addition to my other handicaps.


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#30
RE: Xenophobia?
Which brings us back round to why it would be dishonest or what have you to exploit (another loaded choice of words) a service that you have claim to as a citizen. Seems to me, that in the case of a person having children (ostensibly for the purpose of being moved up to better accommodations- not sure how we'd make a charge like that stick btw, and it's not really how it works here anyway) has to be pretty honest about at least how many children they have.

Without our little brood Miss and I wouldn't qualify for a dime. With 4 we qualify for a few more dimes (but the tax breaks are where it really shows). We didn't have our kids to get an increase in benefits, but every kid we had increased them nevertheless. Whats to stop someone inclined to do so from claiming that we had our children to game the system? Suppose the person making that claim was the issuing body (of our benefits). How are we to defend ourselves against a charge of intent, and how are they to make their case in the first place?

In light of this what exactly, can you, Tibs, say about welfare queens that I wouldn't immediately dismiss, as Apo above, as ideology?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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