Gods forgiveness is worthless.

[Question Mark]

Personal revelation and experience is something particular only to you, and can't reasonably be countered against you by someone else, but at the same time can't be used as evidence for anyone else. That's all I'd say to that.

I remember reading much the same in Thomas Paine's "Common Sense". While I understand the sentiment, some consideration of the source may be appropriate. I have had my own personal spiritual experiences though I would not expect those to be believed except by those already inclined to do so. That said, I imagine the revelations to a random stranger would be much less authoritative to you than a famous scientist. For example, what if Stephen Hawking claimed to have received messages from angels or Daniel Dennett reported having an NDE. I imagine you would take their reported experiences more seriously. Of course, those two would probably dismiss them as fantasies, bits of undigested cheese, no matter how compelling the experience.

I wouldn't take their words for it either. An experience is still by by its nature, proof only to they who had the experience. Anything that happens to Steven Hawking or Daniel Dennett happened to them, and not to me. it can't be evidence for me, unless those experiences can be demonstrated to have happened, and to mean what they claim it to mean.

[ronedee]

Well if you have personal experiences, it's not my place to say that you didn't, or to proclaim to anyone else that you didn't (unless they take it as an example for their own belief, at which point I will feel obligated to point out the flaw in that)
Personal revelation and experience is something particular only to you, and can't reasonably be countered against you by someone else, but at the same time can't be used as evidence for anyone else.
That's all I'd say to that.

Yes! And that's one reason why I refrain from using miracles happening in my life and about those I, and my family have prayed for as evidence for God's existence!

I've seen the doubt on the faces, even when telling a "believer" about someone I know being healed miraculously.

We are programmed for failure from birth! It's transcending that programming that is the hard part!

And, I truly believe in my heart that Faith [alone] is a blessing that does NOT go unrecognized from God.

I have many christian friends that have made all kinds of trips and pilgrimages to places around the globe to increase their faith.

I don't need anything to increase my faith, except God's presence in my life. And I really mean that!

And if you really want to get God's ear? Prayer and Fasting brings great results! That is His promise to us. Amen!

[Question Mark]

We are programmed for failure from birth! It's transcending that programming that is the hard part!

And, I truly believe in my heart that Faith [alone] is a blessing that does NOT go unrecognized from God.

I have many christian friends that have made all kinds of trips and pilgrimages to places around the globe to increase their faith.

I don't need anything to increase my faith, except God's presence in my life. And I really mean that!

And if you really want to get God's ear? Prayer and Fasting brings great results! That is His promise to us. Amen!

Well I disagree with all of that, but we've talked about why before, soo... yeah. Faith isn't a virtue in my view, and has never been demonstrated to me to be anything more than a delusion.

[Esquilax]

We are programmed for failure from birth! It's transcending that programming that is the hard part!

This, of course, leads one down the well traveled path of wondering exactly why god would ever program us that way in the first place.

[ronedee]

It's not God that programs us....its the world around us. Bit by bit...

Another byproduct of free will.

Unfortunately.... giving us free will means moving away from God. It makes us dependent on ourselves.

We can use the "parent/child" metaphor very nicely in our relationship with God!

Its like our small child saying "I can do it"....then running off and falling down....only to come back crying, and for consolation from us.

As parents we try to protect our children from things we already know. But we also know that our children want to find out for themselves.

In their small hearts and minds they know we are right, and could save them from emotional hurt and physical pain. But the need to go on their own and experience for themselves is stronger. Even if it means distancing themselves, and alienation...or worse!

Eventually they learn that "most times" we as parents were right! And that their blind faith in us when they were children would've paid off.

So, isn't God telling us as His children that He knows better? God's messgage to us is; "Love Him, and one another, as ourselves"!

Those are the most important commandments according to Jesus.

If we ALL follow that simple prescription, how can anything else interfere, or matter? Has anyone even tried having Love and Faith in God?
Or is it just too absurdly awkward to everyone?

As independent, free thinkers....we know better don't we? And we descide what is right and wrong. And as the rebellious child does...we tear off on the road to our personal destiny with the bad taste of our parents rule over us left way behind!

But, as the ultimate loving parent always does.... He will be there when we do decide to come back to Him....no matter what happened inbetween.