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The response to miracle requests in Quran.
#1
The response to miracle requests in Quran.
So let's say today, a person wants to be a Messenger (a false Messenger). He comes out preaching that previous Messengers were sent, and that this day and age needs a revelation as well.

He also preaches they come with great signs and miracles, and that people were stubborn in not accepting the Prophets.

Then people say "hold on one minute lad, before you go accusing us of being stubborn in not accepting you, where is the miracles from you just like previous Prophets were sent with miracles per your claim".

Wouldn't you say this is a reasonable objection by people? They weren't being insincere etc...

One of the repeated issues in Quran was that disbelievers were objecting to Mohammad about why a "Sign" has not been sent with him or brought down with him. What I understand from "Sign" is meant a proof/indication in a form of a miracle. So essentially they were asking for a miracle. One such verse is the following:


بَلْ قَالُوا أَضْغَاثُ أَحْلَامٍ بَلِ افْتَرَاهُ بَلْ هُوَ شَاعِرٌ فَلْيَأْتِنَا بِآيَةٍ كَمَا أُرْسِلَ الْأَوَّلُونَ {5}
[Shakir 21:5] Nay! say they: Medleys of dreams; nay! he has forged it; nay! he is a poet; so let him bring to us a sign as the former (prophets) were sent (with).
[Pickthal 21:5] Nay, say they, (these are but) muddled dreams; nay, he hath but invented it; nay, he is but a poet. Let him bring us a portent even as those of old (who were Allah's messengers) were sent (with portents).
[Yusufali 21:5] "Nay," they say, "(these are) medleys of dream! - Nay, He forged it! - Nay, He is (but) a poet! Let him then bring us a Sign like the ones that were sent to (Prophets) of old!"
مَا آمَنَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا ۖ أَفَهُمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ {6}
[Shakir 21:6] There did not believe before them any town which We destroyed, will they then believe?
[Pickthal 21:6] Not a township believed of those which We destroyed before them (though We sent them portents): would they then believe?
[Yusufali 21:6] (As to those) before them, not one of the populations which We destroyed believed: will these believe?

Now this seems like a red-herring and illogical one at that.

People before didn't believe and would not believe, but that didn't prevent God from sending signs with Prophets, so it's a red-herring, and one that doesn't make sense at that. It seems to be a red herring because it avoids answering the issue.

This seems to be not the only red herring.


وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ {7}
[Shakir 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.
[Yusufali 13:7] And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide.

This seems to be another red herring. The reason why is because previous Prophets were just warners, but that didn't prevent them from being sent a miracle/sign. There being a guide for every people is also irrelevant to the issue. It seems to be another red herring. It seems like it avoids answering the question and objection.

يَقُولُونَ لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۖ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلَّهِ فَانْتَظِرُوا إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الْمُنْتَظِرِينَ {20}
[Shakir 10:20] And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say: The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.
[Pickthal 10:20] And they will say: If only a portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Then say, (O Muhammad): The Unseen belongeth to Allah. So wait! Lo! I am waiting with you.
[Yusufali 10:20] They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The Unseen is only for Allah (to know), then wait ye: I too will wait with you."

Again, it seems the answer is being avoided. The Unseen belonging to God doesn't address the issue. It seems like another red herring.



وَأَقْسَمُوا بِاللَّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَانِهِمْ لَئِنْ جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ لَيُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْآيَاتُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ۖ وَمَا يُشْعِرُكُمْ أَنَّهَا إِذَا جَاءَتْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {109}
[Shakir 6:109] And they swear by Allah with the strongest of their oaths, that if a sign came to them they would most certainly believe in it. Say: Signs are only with Allah; and what should make you know that when it comes they will not believe?
[Pickthal 6:109] And they swear a solemn oath by Allah that if there come unto them a portent they will believe therein. Say; Portents are with Allah and (so is) that which telleth you that if such came unto them they would not believe.
[Yusufali 6:109] They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe. Say: "Certainly (all) signs are in the power of Allah: but what will make you (Muslims) realise that (even) if (special) signs came, they will not believe."?
وَنُقَلِّبُ أَفْئِدَتَهُمْ وَأَبْصَارَهُمْ كَمَا لَمْ يُؤْمِنُوا بِهِ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَنَذَرُهُمْ فِي طُغْيَانِهِمْ يَعْمَهُونَ {110}
[Shakir 6:110] And We will turn their hearts and their sights, even as they did not believe in it the first time, and We will leave them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.
[Pickthal 6:110] We confound their hearts and their eyes. As they believed not therein at the first, We let them wander blindly on in their contumacy.
[Yusufali 6:110] We (too) shall turn to (confusion) their hearts and their eyes, even as they refused to believe in this in the first instance: We shall leave them in their trespasses, to wander in distraction.
وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ قُبُلًا مَا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ {111}
[Shakir 6:111] And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.
[Pickthal 6:111] And though We should send down the angels unto them, and the dead should speak unto them, and We should gather against them all things in array, they would not believe unless Allah so willed. Howbeit, most of them are ignorant.
[Yusufali 6:111] Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).


Now this seems like really weak reasoning. With all the red herrings, it's basically stating they would not believe even if the proof was sent. The odd thing is these people became Muslims later as well. What are they suppose to make out of that? That they would not believe no matter what? And how would they believe that but except by believing him. It seem like this objection bothered Mohammad because it was a very good objection towards him. If we think about, miracles are PROOF of Prophets being Prophets. If some people accepted Mohammad, then showing them miracles would increase their faith, it would also cease the excuse of disbelievers. But without miracles, this gives a pretty solid argument and excuse for disbelievers rejecting. Previous Prophets were sent with miracles per Mohammad's claim, yet he isn't sent with any? This is a very good objection. And it's a reasonable one. The thing is these verses are painting them as people that would never accept Mohammad but turns out most disbelievers ended up becoming Muslim after the victory of Muslims.


وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا {59}
[Shakir 17:59] And nothing could have hindered Us that We should send signs except that the ancients rejected them; and We gave to Samood the she-camel-- a manifest sign-- but on her account they did injustice, and We do not send signs but to make (men) fear.
[Pickthal 17:59] Naught hindereth Us from sending portents save that the folk of old denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel - a clear portent save to warn.
[Yusufali 17:59] And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).


Finally the issue is addressed directly. An answer is given as to why he wasn't sent with signs. Now so far, it looks really bad alone that most of the time, the answer is avoided with red herrings. That makes it look like he couldn't think of an answer till now. This is what it looks like to people that don't already believe in Quran. The fact it looks bad this way, is itself a good reason, for God to have sent miracles, instead of making things look really bad.

But let's investigate the answer. Is it a good one?

The reasoning itself seems poor without even pondering about it, but further investigations shows a real problem. Previous Prophets like Jesus were sent with miracles, and signs being rejected in the past never prevented God from sending Signs in the future.

So why the exception? People have free-will to accept and reject clear evidence. Nothing can force them to make a decision and have an irrational view. At most, something can be a factor to influencing them.

Furthermore, people rejecting never caused miracles to become ineffective in the past, and even if they were, it didn't prevent God from sending the signs.

So this seems like very poor reasoning. Even if they were ineffective, sending miracles would make a good case for future readers instead of a bad case for future readers which would like the person couldn't brings miracles and had to make an excuse for it.

Also it makes no sense that an indirect reason would be stated instead of the direct reason which would have to be guessed.

But essentially, when we read Quran, we see for example, Firon asking a sign/indication/proof from Musa, and Musa brings a miracle right away. Not only that, but even though they didn't believe in clear evidence the first time, they were followed up with signs after signs, each one according to Quran, was bigger then it's sister (the one next to it).

It essentially cannot make sense that miracles were always sent, and that the final Prophet would not be sent with miracles. Aside from this issue, is that it seems a miracle was sent with Mohammad per verses of Quran. The moon was split. That seems like a contradiction.

Notice adding your own reasoning, like 'God didn't want to punish them', etc, is giving additional reasons to what is the reason given by Quran. This is what I realized I did all the years of reading Quran, I added my own reasons additional to the reason that is stated in Quran.

But the Quran states the only thing that prevented God from sending signs was that ancients rejected them.

This is the foremost problem I had with Quran.
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#2
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
A giant wall of text proving what? That people write their naked assertions down. Big deal. Every holy book is full of naked assertions.
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#3
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
TL DR: The people were asking Mohammad to bring about a miracle like previous Prophets were sent with miracles, the responses were red-herrings and also a response that was illogical (ie. the only reason signs weren't sent is because previous nations rejected them).
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#4
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
(March 6, 2013 at 11:22 am)MysticKnight Wrote: TL DR: The people were asking Mohammad to bring about a miracle like previous Prophets were sent with miracles, the responses were red-herrings and also a response that was illogical (ie. the only reason signs weren't sent is because previous nations rejected them).

How about the truth. Men are just men and have never had a magic ball to look into. Just because people write shit in a book does not make it true.

See how few words I use vs apologists? It is because life is not a fantasy and the ease of debunking garbage isn't that hard.
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#5
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
Well Brian, if you think you can convince a Muslim by just asserting their book is false, no Prophets were sent, and you think this is a dialogue or is fruitful, it's up to you.

A debate/dialogue with regards to religion from my perspective shouldn't be simply asserting the other side is wrong over and over again. It should use reasoning to show they are wrong or remind of basic human innate knowledge that contradicts the religion.
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#6
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
(March 6, 2013 at 12:06 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well Brian, if you think you can convince a Muslim by just asserting their book is false, no Prophets were sent, and you think this is a dialogue or is fruitful, it's up to you.

A debate/dialogue with regards to religion from my perspective shouldn't be simply asserting the other side is wrong over and over again. It should use reasoning to show they are wrong or remind of basic human innate knowledge that contradicts the religion.

If you want to wade through their Yellow Brick Road fantasy, we do need that. I simply don't myself because I hate that dance.

What exactly is wrong about stating facts? I think it takes both approaches not simply one. This is not about one person. Other people who might be on the bubble might read both your tactic and mine and it could pull them fully out. My intent is not to solely get people to de convert, ANY RELIGION, but to also act as a immunity for those fluxing and or those considering.

There is not one way to attack superstition and most often it takes more than one approach.

X-Christian and X-Muslims exist, and plenty of them and to assume that they all got out of it because of one approach is absurd. Ask enough former believers of any religion and you will find that all of them have different paths that pulled them out.

Not saying you shouldn't do what you do. Just saying I personally don't like the dance and prefer to be blunt.
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#7
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
Quote:Well Brian, if you think you can convince a Muslim by just asserting their book is false, no Prophets were sent, and you think this is a dialogue or is fruitful, it's up to you.

What if we don't give a flying fuck what muslims believe? My only purpose is to convince them that I think their bullshit is just as phony as all the other religions ever concocted by humanity.
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#8
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
What's the purpose of that Min?
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#9
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
What is the purpose of muslims coming here and prattling on about their desert bullshit?
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#10
RE: The response to miracle requests in Quran.
(March 6, 2013 at 1:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote: What is the purpose of muslims coming here and prattling on about their desert bullshit?

That's a red herring friend. It doesn't matter whether they have a purpose or not for that, I was asking you.

My purpose is to seek the truth and guide others towards it when I do dialogue with religion. As much as I know of the truth, I want to share it. But I can't convince people by mere assertion. At the same time, if I erred in my reasoning, showing that reasoning, it perhaps is possible for another person to correct me where I went wrong.

So I like to get feed back to my thoughts.

A Muslim believes that his religion was sent by God. If he wants to convince us of it being true, it's probably because he believes it's helpful for us to believe in it. In the case of Islam, if we disbelieve in it, we are destined for eternal torture, so they are trying to do us a favor (from their perception).

Furthermore, they believe the world accepting Islam will make it a better place.

And furthermore aside from empathy from their perspective, they are following their perception what is praiseworthy, because they believe God has ordered them to do so, and it's highly praiseworthy to spread the true religion.
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