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Was pi invented or discovered?
#61
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
(March 18, 2013 at 9:44 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: So can an imperfect circle have an imperfect, approximate ratio of its circumference divided by its approximate diameter?

We are allowed to describe something as an imperfect circle arent we?
Of course, but you're not making total sense. You need about the first 9 digits (14 digits if you're really anal) of Pi for the area of any "circle" you'll come across in the real world to approximate its area to a meaningful degree of accuracy.

(March 18, 2013 at 8:04 am)Rhythm Wrote: Bolded and italicized the important bit, in other words it's not. No more than 1 is an intrinsic property of a single cow, for us. Unless you're okay with 1 being a property of a cow, I'm not okay with red being a property of light.
Are you kidding or something Rhythm? I just said that Red isn't a property of light. But it is clearly definable because it's one of the three photo processors in our human retinas. So it is a real tangible thing, as to how light gets processed - but not as to how light is made up.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#62
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
As is our notion of a circle, a real and tangible thing, as to how we define real and tangible surfaces or areas, and process those perceptions (but amusingly not dependent on how we process them or even if we are there to process them at all - something quite a bit different from "red"). Any area or surface that fits the definition of a circle is a circle whether or not there is someone there to percieve it as such, but red positively relies on there being someone or something there that perceives light in such a manner.

Lets just rehash what you disagreed with......

""Red" is not an intrinsic property of light, it's merely a way for humans to describe how our eyes perceive certain wavelengths."

To which you replied,

"Actually, for us it is."
Which perfectly explains why it is not, in as little as two words no less. Impressive. The rest is unnecessary, and in truth, you now seem to have failed to disagree with me in any way (but seemed to feel compelled to disagree nevertheless).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#63
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
(March 19, 2013 at 9:51 am)Rhythm Wrote: As is our notion of a circle, a real and tangible thing, as to how we define real and tangible surfaces or areas, and process those perceptions (but amusingly not dependent on how we process them or even if we are there to process them at all - something quite a bit different from "red"). Any area or surface that fits the definition of a circle is a circle whether or not there is someone there to percieve it as such, but red positively relies on there being someone or something there that perceives light in such a manner.
I don't think anyone is arguing that circles don't exist in the real world, and that we have notions for them. What this thread is about is whether Pi was invented or discovered, and Pi is a property of perfect circles only, which cannot be found in the real world and are inventions of humanity.

Like I said before, you can try to calculate Pi from any circle you find or construct in the real world, but you will never be able to get anywhere near an accurate answer.
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#64
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
The term for and definition of a perfect circle is an invention of humanity, but what it describes is not. Pi is a property of an "object" (obviously using the word loosely) that describes a delineated area. In a dimensionless universe, for example, there would be no circles, perfect or otherwise, and pi would be meaningless. Sure, we've divorced the concept of a circle from our experience of a circle and set it as the standard of an ideal (and for good reasons).....but please, explain to me why a near infinite numbers of perfect circles cannot be found wherever there is a single dimension to parcel up? We don't construct them, we don't see nature "constructing" things that are perfect circles, but purely by the way we define them they are there, everywhere, nevertheless. It would be hard to isolate anything in human experience that is not directly contingent upon some observation of the physical world around us (and this is unsurprising, given our sensory package wouldn't you agree?) Pi, as a property of this thing we call a perfect circle depends on at least a single dimension, pi could not have been anything other than what it was, we could not have "invented" an alternative pi. There's no wiggle room for us here. The very moment we decided to describe some portion of an area (an area, I'll remind you, that we did not invent) as a circle pi's value became set as a relationship. Before we defined that perfect circle that relationship was already set. It waited there, to be discovered.

The concept as it is sometimes said, is not the thing, it is shorthand for communicating "the thing".
(and as Apo so quickly recognized way back, perhaps no one is arguing about anything at all, but working from two separate and distinct ideas of what pi (or any other concept) actually is)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#65
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
Well i think its good question because i also never found its answer. We should give credit to that person because it really great invention and i think our mathematics fail without Pia......
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#66
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
(March 19, 2013 at 3:21 am)Aractus Wrote:
(March 18, 2013 at 9:44 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: So can an imperfect circle have an imperfect, approximate ratio of its circumference divided by its approximate diameter?

We are allowed to describe something as an imperfect circle arent we?
Of course, but you're not making total sense. You need about the first 9 digits (14 digits if you're really anal) of Pi for the area of any "circle" you'll come across in the real world to approximate its area to a meaningful degree of accuracy...

Got it! Thanks.
Approximately somewhere between 9 and 14.

Does that apply for fractions of Pi too?
eg.... Pi ÷ 2 as seen below 1.57
[Image: V-belt-formula.jpg]
[Image: CenterDistance.gif]
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#67
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
(March 19, 2013 at 9:51 am)Rhythm Wrote: ""Red" is not an intrinsic property of light, it's merely a way for humans to describe how our eyes perceive certain wavelengths."

To which you replied,

"Actually, for us it is."
Which perfectly explains why it is not, in as little as two words no less. Impressive. The rest is unnecessary, and in truth, you now seem to have failed to disagree with me in any way (but seemed to feel compelled to disagree nevertheless).
Rhythm, I don't know what to tell you. Light has the property "wavelength". Retinas have three separate sensors for sensitivity which detect light as "RED", "GREEN" or "BLUE". Humans, (almost always men), can be born colour-blind where one or even two of those sensors don't work (or do not function well under daylight conditions). There are two types of light sensors in our retinas - rods and cones. Cones are the ones that detect COLOUR. They are the ones that cause us to know and appreciate what colour is. They are the ones that decide whether a certain wavelength is RED, GREEN or BLUE ... or a combination thereof. At night, and in the dark - when there is not a lot of light that comes through, the cones are mostly inactive and the rods are active. Rods do not respond to different colours, and thus we see a BLACK AND WHITE image in the dark. RED is a real, tangible thing - it is not a "perception". It is determined by the cones, we didn't invent it. We invented names for other colours like YELLOW which is not a "real, tangible" colour as far as our retinas are concerned, we see the world as "RED, GREEN, BLUE".
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#68
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
4 years of college...and you all are so proud of yourselfs..like you all know everything, and "speakeths" such profound thoughts. Boring...you guys are so full of yourselfs its embarrassing. So, what! Oh, by the way..my dad was a surgeon, my brother in law a heart surgeon..but you guys are the type that don't get the girls!!
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#69
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
May the power of (irrelevant to the topic) necroposts compel you!
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
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#70
RE: Was pi invented or discovered?
Another quote from star wars made by a gilrfriendless phylosopher of little true objective...
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