Advice needed: My philosophical position is destroying my relationships

[Ryft]

I was quite insensitive with how I argued my point and could have done it better. It's not that I keep meeting girls who are easily offended, it's that I tend to easily offend them by my lack of tact when trying to express myself.

It is difficult, to say the least, for anyone to advise you on how to better express yourself when we have no idea how you've been expressing yourself. Given that, perhaps you could provide a couple example snippets of he-said-she-said, whereby we can evaluate (i) what you said (ii) in the context it was said, and maybe offer some advice on how you could have said it differently. (Although I am not an atheist, that does not prevent me from providing advice.)

[hyperpolyglotte]

Good idea Arcanus!
Well basically I was giving her a tour of Prague and explaining the Astronomical clock and saying how the old view of the universe worked based on Astrology and saying that we know that's silly (Earth at the centre, constellations are fixed on an invisible sphere rotating not too far out in space etc.). She believed in astrology (which was bad enough; normally I wouldn't go out with a girl THAT silly to be honest) and I told her straight that it's just wrong and that anyone of any sign can find the predictions she reads to be true if they wanted it bad enough. She brought up religion from this and I also told her my frank belief that it's unfounded, ridiculous and inconsistent. I understand the faith argument, because I used to be Christian, but frankly I grew up and don't need Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Jesus etc. watching over me to make sure I do the right thing.
She said that I didn't have an open mind; that everyone has the right to believe what they want. I agreed, but still said that believing in religion is plain wrong based on the facts, and you could theoretically believe in anything as ridiculous or more based on the argument that believing is enough.
The argument seemed to mostly be about misunderstanding respect for people's beliefs. I don't think she got what I was trying to say. People can believe what they want, but I can be as sure that it's wrong as I am that the invisible pink unicorn or flying spaghetti monster isn't real. She seemed to think I was implying that nobody has a right to their beliefs since I was so boldly saying that it's wrong. She implied greater moral superiority in accepting all beliefs even though there are plenty of non-religious things she strongly disagrees with and would equally say those people are wrong.
This is my philosophical point and I'd really like to find a better way to say what I want to say truthfully without actually plainly saying "you are wrong"... I didn't actually say those words, but as good as.

[Ryft]

... saying that we know that's silly ... I told her straight that it's just wrong ... I also told her my frank belief that it's unfounded, ridiculous ... said that believing in religion is plain wrong ...

What the context of the conversation tells me, then, is that you were shoving your beliefs down her throat. Quite frankly, that really is off-putting, Glotte. Her reaction was certainly rational. Your views are not somehow normative for all people by the power of ipse dixit fiat. Your views are just that: your views. When she said that you do not have an open mind, that tells me she thought you were expressing bigotry—and, quite honestly, you were (where bigotry means "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own"). She is right: bigotry IS contrary to general epistemic virtues. So shoving your beliefs down someone else's throat is bad enough; when its patent bigotry, it is even worse.

My advice? In the context of that conversation I would have described the astronomical clock as being based on the "archaic" views of astrology. There is no offense in referring to it as an 'old' view based on 'outdated' astronomical knowledge, which is not only what "archaic" means but also what you mean. With that expression it is unlikely she would have gotten her knickers in a twist in the first place, obviating the entire unpleasant encounter while being frank and honest about your views.

[hyperpolyglotte]

Thanks for your feedback Arcanus!

Just describing astrology as "archaic" would not have been totally honest of me. I don't believe that it's archaic. To me it's BS, plain and simple. Old and new BS is still BS. That's what I said, but I didn't express it sensitively enough.

However, I think your suggestion is quite helpful because it isn't as in-your-face, and is not untrue at the same time. My worry is not expressing myself honestly, but I think I should just do things like your example and not just start with my conclusions but ease them into them. She asked me if I believed in Astrology and instead of just saying "No, it's absolutely ridiculous", I should have softened the edges and started with "Well, you know the way you may have once been sure the tooth fairy was true?" or whatever. You are right that it smells of bigotry, and I am trying to found my claims on science. The scientific method never starts with conclusions, so neither should I in my arguments.

I believe I've found a good solution to my overall problem: I have read through these forums and several websites and watched debates online and have seen how good arguers defend their position without necessarily being insensitive or thought of as bigots. I'll continue to read these (as well as the religious retorts) and see how others have this conversation and attempt to emulate this in future.

Thanks for your help

[Eilonnwy]

http://www.examiner.com/x-8776-Boston-At...and-Dating

The friendly atheist gave some advice in a talk, you can watch the video here. It's amusing too.

[downbeatplumb]

Hi all! This is my first post - I found this forum because I'd really like the advice of fellow atheists; I hope this thread is the appropriate one for this topic! I travel a lot in religious Latin countries so I rarely meet other atheists in person and so, I thought I could turn to this forum!

When philosophical discussions come up I usually try to avoid it because I am very bad at expressing my opinions and arguing a point (and usually am not talking in English when it happens, which makes it even harder) and I'm not usually in the company of analytical and scientifically minded people so I've found that less conflicts and arguments occur when I simply bite my tongue.

But when I'm in a relationship with someone it's different. I need to be open and frank and honest with that person. Today yet another relationship of mine has ended because I shared my beliefs with the girl. In an ideal world I'd only go out with other atheists.. but that's very difficult in the circles I am usually in. I can "put up" with a girl being religious if we get along in every other way, but the way I express my thoughts mean that the reverse is never true... the way I say what I want to say always comes out too harsh and offends the other person.

I'd really love for some encouragement or tips from someone who has been in a similar situation!! I need to express myself better; how do you defend your thoughts without offending the other person? I'm very clear that I am certain about my beliefs and frankly do not respect theirs. Is there any way to say this without just lying? Also, if anyone has links to how to argue your case I'd appreciate it if I am in a discussion with anyone. I grew up in a catholic environment and was a believer until I went to university and took part in many philosophical discussions and read a lot about the subject. I'm very analytically minded, but this logical approach of explaining myself never works with people I am usually with.

Sorry for the rambling post... hope someone here can help me out!! Thanks

I avoid talking politics with my Dad and religion with my wife.

If pushed, I prefix any statement with 'in my view' which leaves an openning for the other person to have their view. Much less confrontational.

[Dotard]

Oh screw all that pussy-footing, tip-toeing crap.

Say it like it is. There exists no evidence for the existance of supernatural invisible sky daddys, i.e. Gods. Period.

Got hurt feelings? Too bad. Suck it up chimp monkey, that's just the way it is.

Insensitive? Bigoted? Yeah, call it that if it makes ya feel better. Stating the obvious does not make one 'intolerant'. I tolerate all the numb-nutted idiotic ideas anyone wishes to live with. I just do not share them and see no reason not to state as such for fear of isolation or "scaring" others off.

I do not need to hide the fact that I do not share in anyones non-evidenced opinions about ghosts and goblins nor witches or God(s). That is a 'view' or opinion. It's just what you think.
Stating we have no evidence for any of that garbage (aotg) is not a opinion or view, it's a fact.
It's an opinion that there probably is no God. It's a fact we have no evidence of such a creature.

Is that 'intolerant'? No. therefore it does not bigotry make.

When I meet people as you describe (the OP) and they want to get all cry-baby, becoming insulted and start calling me close-minded because I state a fact, I celebrate their departure.

Really, if she said the world was resting on a turtle's back, and you showed her a pic from space explaining it hangs in space would Arcanus still accuse you of insensitive bigotry and shoving your 'beliefs' down another's throat?

If she said cigarettes were not addictive nor a threat to good health, and you showed her the facts, would Arcanus still accuse you of insensitive bigotry and shoving your 'beliefs' down another's throat?

Bullshit. It is not your 'insensitivity' or 'bigotry' or your acceptance of reality as what is real that is ruining your relationships. It is the 'let's play pretend'ers that are ruining your relationships. It's not you.


BTW, I have been in a relationship for over 18 years with a Christian go to church EVERY sunday (well, tomorrow she's working for me so she has to skip, but she'll pray for forgiveness) girl.

She accepts I don't play pretend unless it's in the bedroom (or closet or bathtub or kitchen, you get the picture) and we're just fine. I love her and she loves my money, or me, I dunno. She says it don't pay her no nevermind that I'll be burning in hell for eternity. In fact she says I deserve it. Not for not believing in her God but for otherthings. But I degress.

What were we talking about?

Oh yeah, I fully support the legalization of marijuana.

[theVOID]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Dotard!

[youtube]DIEvHCyb4Ms[/youtube]

[Dotard]

Yeah. Sublime. Good stuffs.

[mike0001]

I agree entirely! Freedom of belief is only some silly notion in certain outdated constitutions! Just means you won't go to prison for being a Lollard, not that nobody can tell you your belief is illogical!

Oh, and Dotard, god is non-temporal but eternity is temporal, so I guess you will never meet that non-existent god in that non-existent hell you will burn in!