Thick, delicious irony

[Tonus]

When Christians say "Trust in God" they do not mean "Trust God to look after your stuff, so it doesnt get nicked", but rather "trust that everything is happening for a reason / has some meaning".

This brings to mind a conflict, and perhaps it's only from Jehovah's Witnesses, though it does not seem to be the case (I know non-JWs who do this as well). They pray for god's guidance, protection, help... in short, they pray for his positive intervention in their lives. But they also admit that they're subject to the whims of fate (Ecclesiastes 9:11). Which is why so many of them say "god willing" when they make plans.

If we're subject to "god's will" and everything happens in accordance with his will and his divine plan, then prayer seems superfluous. If I had a trip to make the next day, I could pray to god for a safe return and then turn around and depart with "see you next week, god willing!" And if he wasn't willing, then my prayer wouldn't matter because he wasn't going to protect me from that bullet that has my name on it. For all I know, my death was integral to his plans and so he put my name on that bullet. My prayer didn't make any difference. Heck, I invalidated it myself the moment I admitted that my safe return depended on something other than that prayer.

Is that kind of prayer superfluous to the believer, or is it more of an attempt to better the odds? Maybe there was a bullet with your name on it, but god deflects it because you prayed. Otherwise, he'd have let it follow its trajectory. And if he decided that this was your time to go, he might even make sure it was a hollow point, or something. A quick, painless kill.

Unless it's his will that you suffer horribly before you die, that is.

[Cyberman]

Hi Stimbo

I dont see that this is ironic.

Since when has faith ever meant a person is invulnerable to theft?

It doesnt mean that, and nor has anyone ever claimed it did. A religious person can be robbed just the same as anyone.

The common one you hear is criticism of the bullet-proof Pope Mobile, which was brought in after Pope John Paul II was shot 3 times in St Peters Square, by a KGB agent (early 1980s. He didnt die and later visited his attacker in prison, in order to talk with him and forgive him for what he did).

Taking steps to prevent a Pope from assisination is not ironic or hypocritical either: believing in God doesnt make you bullet-proof, or somehow invulnerable to conventional weaponry.

When Christians say "Trust in God" they do not mean "Trust God to look after your stuff, so it doesnt get nicked", but rather "trust that everything is happening for a reason / has some meaning".

While being a victim of a robbery is a bad thing, our personalities are the sum of all our experiences, good and bad. While no-one would disagree that good experiences are the best, its a fact that bad experiences have just as much to teach us and are just as important in forming our characters and making us who we are.

I think the difference, when all's said and done, is that I am rather more free to appreciate what I see as irony in all this since I'm essentially viewing it from the outside and thus not obliged, if I may use the word, to come up with rationalisations as to the meaning and application of platitudes of this nature.

I'm in no way suggesting that being part of the god squad in-crowd makes you immune to "the slings and arrowes of outrageous fortune" because that would make me both intolerant and stupid (though I certainly wouldn't be the first to do so if I did). However, even if the words are intended to be interpreted the way you suggest, and who am I to say ye nay, all you've done is to reach the same ironic conclusion from a different angle. Namely, that the fatalist approach of everything happening for a reason rather renders the reliance on items such as burglar alarms, bulletproof glass and lightning conductors by churches and churchfolk not only faintly ridiculous in context but tantamount to defiance of the will of the very god they worship. It's almost the very definition of doublethink in the true Orwellian sense.

[Mystical]

But Stimbo, if you die its gods plan, if you lose your leg in a runaway horse carriage accident: its gods plan. If you lose everything you own including your health: its gods plan. That is until you face these things yourself. Or actually have to face those starving children face to face: in which case, that's man's fallibility. Or Satan! The choice blame is Satan, that way NO one has to take responsibility for ANYthing! Even themselves.

[Cyberman]

Damn - you're right, I forgot about old Satan, that little scamp. It must be nice to be religious, sometimes, being able to blame the bogeyman for all your actions.

[Darkstar]

If you lose everything you own including your health: its gods plan.

---

Or Satan! The choice blame is Satan, that way NO one has to take responsibility for ANYthing! Even themselves.

It's Satan and god's plan! Haven't you read the book of Job?

[Minimalist]

its gods plan.

The fucker needs a better plan.

[Cyberman]

Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

[Fruity]

Honestly, if I was Christian and someone told me not to worry because God has a plan, I'd freak out since that would mean that now I'm really fucked. I could lose my house, my kids, get sick for years just so he could prove a miracle at my expense, have to eat birds that fall from the sky until they come out my nose, end up dead and floating around a boat holding a handful of good people, have to be willing to kill my son, send my son to be killed, kill babies, experience a plague, get grounded for having my period, or promise to never cut my son's hair. Ever.

[Minimalist]

It's in here, Stim....for those who enjoy the performance as well as the words.

[Cyberman]

There really is no substitute for the great man himself, is there?