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Theists- do you believe without evidence?
#21
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
(April 27, 2013 at 9:17 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: ...you have chosen a worldview which satisfies what you wish to be true and which avoids accepting things you wish were not true....
The substance of my post includes you. You, Ryan, have made an equally irrational choice. Certain axioms are logically necessary for rational thinking. That does not mean the axioms we presuppose match what actually is. It could be that said axioms only maintain our false belief that we are rational.

Atheism was not a choice, for me. I was not presented with atheism and I did not make the choice to discard the Christian faith I had held, to varying degrees, most of my entire life. I was presented with too many reasons to doubt the Christian faith to continue holding onto it. It got to the point where I simply could no longer believe in what you and yours sell. And believe me, I tried.

And, unlike all the "I used to be an atheist but then I found Jesus Christ yay!" horseshitters on this forum, I can even prove it.

This was a forum I ran years ago under the username "Weltall". All the posts, made with that name, are mine. So, you can see that I am not talking out of my ass when I say that I once was dumb enough to be a Christian and believe the same stupid things you believe, today.

The point of this is, I did not choose to stop believing things as I believed in 2003. What happened was that the real world forced me to abandon a viewpoint which was not compatible with it. The only way choice played into this was choosing not to deny the obvious any longer.

Quote:For example, the ability to reason effectively depends on an inherently ordered reality. So belief in an ordered reality is logically necessary. Yet reality may actually be completely chaotic. In that case our reason is just a useless fantasy, hence absurdity.

An explosion appears to be chaotic, yet explosions never just happen, randomly. They happen because of very orderly chemical processes occurring in just the right way. Is an explosion chaotic or orderly?

Quote:Likewise, belief in libertarian free will is logically necessary for rational thought. But it could be otherwise. Yet perhaps you cannot actually alter the course of your thinking or subsequent behaviour. That makes you a puppet of forces beyond your control, hence fatalism.

Perhaps not everything is entirely polar. I know that being religious forces you to think in extremes, because that is how a child's mind operates. I appreciate the gray areas in almost everything.

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: You know nothing about what I fear. I gravitate to an intellectually consistent position that presupposes the ability to acquire knowledge, take responsibility for my own actions, make meaningful moral judgments, and provide justification for semiotic relationships between thought and reality.

I take a position which presupposes nothing. You fear uncertainty, chaos, and meaninglessness, so you cling to a childish fantasy being which purports to be orderly, certain, and the source of all meaning. You throw around the word 'fatalistic' as if it is an inherently negative concept. You betray your fears.

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Is that so? You are deluded if you believe you know the world as it actually is? As a philosophical position, atheism undermines any notion you might have that your view of reality is logically coherent.

You believe in a worldview based upon violent stolen fairy tales, and I'm the one who is deluded? I don't hold a viewpoint which requires non-stop rationalization. I do not have to invent attributes for my god because science keeps encroaching on all possible avenues by which that god logically exists. Apologetics indicates a fundamental weakness in your position. And, the most beautiful thing is, if I'm wrong, it still doesn't mean you're right. There are tens of thousands of religions, cults, and sects which compete with yours, and all you can do is say "my god is real because my book says so and my book is right because god says so", or "he communicates with me shut up".
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#22
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
(April 27, 2013 at 6:23 pm)Soyouz Wrote: How is it even possible to believe with evidence? It's not belief anymore then is it. :/

Yes just has a more supportable or superior reasoning in the beliefs technically.
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#23
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
(April 27, 2013 at 10:54 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Atheism was not a choice, for me.
If the physical reality is causally closed then your belief is the inevitable outcome of the initial conditions of the universe. Otherwise, you made a choice.

(April 27, 2013 at 10:54 pm)Ryantology Wrote: ...the real world forced me to abandon a viewpoint which was not compatible with it. The only way choice played into this was choosing not to deny the obvious any longer.
Well hopefully you'll come to understand that the atheistic viewpoint conflicts with other obvious facts about reality, something readily admitted by atheist philosophers like Nagel and Searle.

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: I take a position which presupposes nothing.
And without which you can get nothing. I understand the sense of freedom and liberty nihilism affords. I used to relish it myself. But it's a hollow victory.


(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: You fear uncertainty, chaos, and meaninglessness, so you cling to a childish fantasy being which purports to be orderly, certain, and the source of all meaning.
Project much. Your misguided certainty about what I believe is childish.

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: You believe in a worldview based upon violent stolen fairy tales, and I'm the one who is deluded? I don't hold a viewpoint which requires non-stop rationalization. I do not have to invent attributes for my god because science keeps encroaching on all possible avenues by which that god logically exists. Apologetics indicates a fundamental weakness in your position. And, the most beautiful thing is, if I'm wrong, it still doesn't mean you're right. There are tens of thousands of religions, cults, and sects which compete with yours, and all you can do is say "my god is real because my book says so and my book is right because god says so", or "he communicates with me shut up".
Wow! Your identity and self-worth are totally dependent on your conviction that your beliefs are superior to those of believers.
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#24
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
(April 27, 2013 at 9:17 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You know nothing about what I fear. I gravitate to an intellectually consistent position that presupposes the ability to acquire knowledge, take responsibility for my own actions, make meaningful moral judgments, and provide justification for semiotic relationships between thought and reality.

No truer words could ever be spoken.

I embrace this, yet I deny the existence of any god, but you are a Christian ascribing to a particular flavor. What haven't I considered?
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#25
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
(April 27, 2013 at 11:21 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: If the physical reality is causally closed then your belief is the inevitable outcome of the initial conditions of the universe. Otherwise, you made a choice.

Maybe it is.

Insofar as choice is concerned, I could certainly choose to ignore the fact that Christianity is intellectually empty as a worldview. I don't. So, in that, it's a choice. But, certainly, I did not just wake up one day and decide not to believe in God anymore. Once I passed a certain point, believing in God made no sense to me anymore. I was not able to choose to keep believing without being dishonest.

(April 27, 2013 at 10:54 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Well hopefully you'll come to understand that the atheistic viewpoint conflicts with other obvious facts about reality, something readily admitted by atheist philosophers like Nagel and Searle.

Oh dear, more of this mythical 'atheist viewpoint'.

Tell me, how does "There is no god" conflict with reality?

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: And without which you can get nothing. I understand the sense of freedom and liberty nihilism affords. I used to relish it myself. But it's a hollow victory.

It's not a victory at all. It is what it is. I don't relish losing my faith, though I don't regret it, either. Maybe it is hollow, if you feel like your life only has whatever meaning your imaginary god places upon it. I'm a nihilist in that I understand the truth: life has no objective meaning. The universe has no objective meaning. My life has subjective meaning, and that's enough to satisfy me. My self-worth is not dependent on sky daddies.

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Project much. Your misguided certainty about what I believe is childish.

Am I wrong? Your obvious distaste for nihilism suggests not. The fact that you resort to fantasy in order to escape this suggests not.

(April 27, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Wow! Your identity and self-worth are totally dependent on your conviction that your beliefs are superior to those of believers.

That you got this from what I wrote suggests a severely crippled ability to digest information accurately. But, you're a Christian, so that's no big shocker.
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#26
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
(April 27, 2013 at 9:20 pm)wwjs Wrote:
(April 27, 2013 at 8:32 pm)Tex Wrote: That isn't the topic of this thread, wwjs.
Want a different thread for it? I can start it for you.

That is not your place.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
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#27
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
That's what I expected. Empty words and that's it.
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#28
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
I have no need to prove myself to you. Go reverse psych someone else.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
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#29
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
Maybe you never heard about it before, but usually when people say that they have evidence others want to know about it.
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#30
RE: Theists- do you believe without evidence?
The evidence, in this situation, should be presented to Dawud if requested. You are not Muslim and I will not add fuel to the fires of your hate.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
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