Childhood indoctrination

[Something completely different]

No, not equal rights, that's a usual response and a sin against the second commandment of rational arguments:

2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person's argument In order to make it easier to attack.

Basically just leaving them alone would be sufficient.

That is a right - the right to life.

Other than that, why should we when they are a source of food?

You're right, but our own actions have consequences as well, and it's irrational to consider only those interests of one species if the members of many other species have exactly the same interests and exactly as much or as little right to ask for their fulfilment as us.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!

Did you ever see a chicken talking about it`s interest in BDSM or a cow talking about it`s interest in French cinema?

[Forbinator]

I was a vegan, I got some serious health issues.

I suggest you stop, or just become a veggie before you get the same trouble.

That's absurd. All the nutrients we need are available in plant-based food, but with more anti-oxidants, less cholesterol and fewer carcinogens. I've met hundreds of vegans in the animal rights movement here in Melbourne who are very healthy, many of whom have been vegan for 15+ years. There is so much information on the internet about which foods contain which nutrients that there really is no excuse for being deficient. Even if you only eat junk food, worst-case scenario is taking a vitamin pill. No need to enslave animals.

---

Does anyone here think that there are logical justifications for exploiting animals for food, clothing and entertainment?

I can eat it, I can wear it, it entertains me.

I can murder someone and get away with it if I plan my alibi well enough, and I can rob a defenceless old lady in a dark alley with no witnesses and get away with it, but these are not valid as justifications, not least because they fail to acknowledge the impact on the victim.

[littleendian]

Did you ever see a chicken talking about it`s interest in BDSM or a cow talking about it`s interest in French cinema?

At a fundamental level they do have the same interests of being free from harm and living a long life that has some kind of purpose, with animals usually limite to their children.

[Something completely different]

That's absurd. All the nutrients we need are available in plant-based food, but with more anti-oxidants, less cholesterol and fewer carcinogens. I've met hundreds of vegans in the animal rights movement here in Melbourne who are very healthy, many of whom have been vegan for 15+ years. There is so much information on the internet about which foods contain which nutrients that there really is no excuse for being deficient. Even if you only eat junk food, worst-case scenario is taking a vitamin pill. No need to enslave animals.

I started to eat less, lost a dangerous amount of weight and had to stop after my bones showed signs that they were starting do desintegrate, aswell as my teeth.
Other than that, I got really ichy skin.

[littleendian]

I've met hundreds of vegans in the animal rights movement here in Melbourne who are very healthy, many of whom have been vegan for 15+ years.

It might still be that the biology of some people is just not cut out for plant-based food... of course this can also be an easy way out to just never seriously try veganism, lame.

[Something completely different]

At a fundamental level they do have the same interests of being free from harm and living a long life that has some kind of purpose, with animals usually limite to their children.

Well, do instincts constitute enought argumental power to make a case for legal rights?

A animal with only "fundermental" level of intelligence (basic instincts) sees it`s only purpose in reproduction.

If you had ever owned a cat, you would notice how they aggressively drive away their kittens once they have grown up. A behavioral pattern seen in many animals.

[Forbinator]

Oh wow. Suggesting that vegans want equal rights for all animals is a serious strawman argument and oversimplification.

To help you understand, let's make an analogy to humans. I believe that all women should have the right to have free pap smears and mammograms as part of their overall health, but I wouldn't campaign for their rights to have free regular prostate exams. The key here is not equal rights, but equal consideration of interests. There is no evidence to suggest that one gender has more of an interest in being healthy than the other, but there are differences between the genders that would mean their rights should not be exactly equal.

A cow has an interest in continuing her existence, as evidenced by her survival instinct, which is measurable by secretion of hormones in times of stress (catecholamines and corticosteroids) just as for humans. There is no reason why this interest is less valid than the corresponding interest that I have in continuing my existence. Chickens have an interest in having a place to dust-bathe (but I wouldn't advocate equal rights to humans in this regard as we don't share that interest) and humans have an interest in achieving a high school education (again, equal education rights for chickens would be absurd as they don't have this interest).

---

That's absurd. All the nutrients we need are available in plant-based food, but with more anti-oxidants, less cholesterol and fewer carcinogens. I've met hundreds of vegans in the animal rights movement here in Melbourne who are very healthy, many of whom have been vegan for 15+ years. There is so much information on the internet about which foods contain which nutrients that there really is no excuse for being deficient. Even if you only eat junk food, worst-case scenario is taking a vitamin pill. No need to enslave animals.

I started to eat less, lost a dangerous amount of weight and had to stop after my bones showed signs that they were starting do desintegrate, aswell as my teeth.
Other than that, I got really ichy skin.

Perhaps the issue was that you ate less, rather being about what you ate. Did you at least get a blood test to find out what you were deficient in so you could correct it? Plenty of calcium in leafy greens (since you say your bones were disintegrating), and the idea that cow secretions protect against osteoporosis is a myth; the rates of osteoporosis are highest in regions that consume higher quantities of dairy (see "The China Study" among other studies), and confounding variables have not been identified. Certainly we don't have the evidence to say that dairy decreases osteoporosis rates.

[Something completely different]

Oh wow. Suggesting that vegans want equal rights for all animals is a serious strawman argument and oversimplification.

To help you understand, let's make an analogy to humans. I believe that all women should have the right to have free pap smears and mammograms as part of their overall health, but I wouldn't campaign for their rights to have free regular prostate exams. The key here is not equal rights, but equal consideration of interests. There is no evidence to suggest that one gender has more of an interest in being healthy than the other, but there are differences between the genders that would mean their rights should not be exactly equal.

What a ???????? argument, a woman is not in need of a prostate exam - therefor this entire analogy falls appart - other than that:

BREAKING NEWS: Women are also humans!!!!

And interests are the thing which build a case for legal rights. - you are simply playing with words.

A cow has an interest in continuing her existence, as evidenced by her survival instinct, which is measurable by secretion of hormones in times of stress (catecholamines and corticosteroids) just as for humans. There is no reason why this interest is less valid than the corresponding interest that I have in continuing my existence. Chickens have an interest in having a place to dust-bathe (but I wouldn't advocate equal rights to humans in this regard as we don't share that interest) and humans have an interest in achieving a high school education (again, equal education rights for chickens would be absurd as they don't have this interest).

One thing - We are a different species and on top of the food chain.
We understand our world and learned to use and influence it towards being more benefitial for us.

Other than that - you have your personal right to "respect" interests.
But why should you have the right to infringe others rights to food?

[festive1]

This is why I don't get into vegetarian/vegan arguments...
I think a better discussion is how to change farming practices (put pressure on big Agra) to make them better for the environment and more humane for the animals in question. Trying to convince people not to eat animals or wear leather is very much an uphill battle.
Incidentally, I'm having a lunch date this afternoon with a vegan friend... This may be my reoccurring theme for the day.

[Forbinator]

Well, do instincts constitute enought argumental power to make a case for legal rights?

This is status-quo bias. The real question is what differences exist that justify denying them legal rights? Back when slavery of African-Americans was allowed, your question could have been rephrased to "does walking on two legs and being able to talk constitute enough argumental power to make a case for legal rights?" The real question is why should they be denied?

And besides, animals already have some legal rights, from the absolute blatant acts of cruelty. The authorities seem to turn the other way or create loopholes if the cruelty is in the name of business though.

A animal with only "fundermental" level of intelligence (basic instincts) sees it`s only purpose in reproduction.

If you had ever owned a cat, you would notice how they aggressively drive away their kittens once they have grown up. A behavioral pattern seen in many animals.

Yes, different species have different interests, and have evolved different means of propagating their genes. This is why I believe that it is a horrible crime to kidnap a ten-year-old human child from their parents, but would not hold that same belief for other species. It is a horrible injustice that the dairy industry kidnaps and kills calves on their first day of life, however if a calf is separated from his/her mother (without being killed) at a year old, once there is no longer a biological urge to suckle, I would not carry the same objection.