Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 1:23 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Childhood indoctrination
#31
RE: Childhood indoctrination
Aractus, I don't quite understand the humour. Also, how badly do you need silk? Interestingly, I think one could have a stronger justification for killing insects such as silk worms (although inflicting sadistic cruelty like boiling alive is a different matter) because ecologically, insects are "r species" as opposed to "k species". That is, their "success" in propagating their genes is mostly due to expelling huge numbers of eggs very quickly, and if a small portion survive, they are successful. "k species" succeed primarily because of their survival instinct. This is a debatable issue I'm sure, and it doesn't mean I'm going to start stomping on insects for fun.
Reply
#32
RE: Childhood indoctrination
(June 2, 2013 at 9:22 am)Forbinator Wrote: Aractus, I don't quite understand the humour. Also, how badly do you need silk? Interestingly, I think one could have a stronger justification for killing insects such as silk worms (although inflicting sadistic cruelty like boiling alive is a different matter) because ecologically, insects are "r species" as opposed to "k species". That is, their "success" in propagating their genes is mostly due to expelling huge numbers of eggs very quickly, and if a small portion survive, they are successful. "k species" succeed primarily because of their survival instinct. This is a debatable issue I'm sure, and it doesn't mean I'm going to start stomping on insects for fun.
"Sadistic Cruelty"? Kill them painlessly in their sleep is "Sadistic Cruelty"?? If only Crabs were so lucky. Or Cattle. Or Seals. Or, hell just about most other animals - lol - but you call boiling a caterpillar during its dormant state of metamorphosis "Sadistic Cruelty"?!

How badly do I need silk? Well I hate synthetic fibres. They're bad for the environment, and I don't like them. Also, natural fibres like wool and silk are recyclable, whereas synthetics are not.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
Reply
#33
RE: Childhood indoctrination
(June 2, 2013 at 9:16 am)The Germans are coming Wrote:
(June 2, 2013 at 8:21 am)littleendian Wrote: They obviously do for severely mentally handicapped people, just because they're reduced to instincts doesn't mean we grant them fewer rights.

Not true. I did my Zivildienst in a Einrichtung für Geistig Behinderte.
Most of them have more than just simple instincts. Why would a 50 year old man who cant read pretend to read? In most cases the subconcious mind simply has the bigger influence on a persons actions.
Other than that, even those which are reduced to instincts still have parents which want them to be kept alive and love them
But the key here is that intelligence is not the driving factor in determining whether someone deserves basic rights.

Quote:And did I mention that handicapped people are humans and not animals.
So you're just reiterating that it's ok to eat animals, simply because they're animals. This is the same status quo bias as people against gay marriage saying "but marriage is between a man and a woman". Yes of course it is right now according to the law, but that's the whole problem that needs changing.

Quote:
Quote:Basically the animals are our dumb little brothers and sisters, they don't know shit, they're even dumb as hell often times, but that only makes our responsibility toward them all so much greater. What we're doing now is we're letting hate and cruelty rain down on these innocent creatures. Humans are better than that.

hate and cruelty????

I simply want to eat. Other than that, most slaughterhouses are legaly bound to keep pain inflicted on animals at a minimum.

Take a look arround. Do you see a pack of wolves who politly considere a deer`s needs and therefor asks the herd politely for a carcas?
Hate and cruelty are actions. Whether that was what you intended is irrelevant to the outcome. Also, slaughterhouses are laws unto themselves. Cameras aren't even allowed in, unless animal rights activists somehow sneak in. Minimising pain is not enough, when the whole process could be eliminated entirely.

And while we’re at it, if we’re using the behaviour of wild animals as an ethical reference point, I guess it’s ok if we throw our faeces at each other, rape each other and steal each other’s food?
Reply
#34
RE: Childhood indoctrination
(June 2, 2013 at 9:16 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: And did I mention that handicapped people are humans and not animals.

That's already at the core of the argument: The sentence above illustrates that we draw a line between humans and animals, but we're exactly talking about whether this line is justified. It's just like white slave traders used to say about the blacks that they were simply born to be slaves, without ever thinking about the underlying assumptions that led them there. If they had they had much sooner seen the fallacy and wouldn't have perpetrated terrible crimes.

As voltair said: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

The ability to suffer and the will to live is the only rational, reasonable criterium for who deserves our moral consideration and who doesn't, everything else is just an absurdity that today makes us commit atrocities. Many animals are today treat in a terrible way while they actually have similar ability to suffer and desire to live as human animals do.
"Men see clearly enough the barbarity of all ages — except their own!" — Ernest Crosby.
Reply
#35
RE: Childhood indoctrination
(June 2, 2013 at 9:31 am)Aractus Wrote: "Sadistic Cruelty"? Kill them painlessly in their sleep is "Sadistic Cruelty"?? If only Crabs were so lucky. Or Cattle. Or Seals. Or, hell just about most other animals - lol - but you call boiling a caterpillar during its dormant state of metamorphosis "Sadistic Cruelty"?!

How badly do I need silk? Well I hate synthetic fibres. They're bad for the environment, and I don't like them. Also, natural fibres like wool and silk are recyclable, whereas synthetics are not.
Ok, it seems I neglected to take into account the dormant state of metamorphosis.

Cotton isn't a synthetic fibre, and I think there are other vegan non-synthetics if you must have them. Wool is also very bad for the environment, and a horribly inefficient use of land, as well as being bad for the animals, who have to endure painful procedures without anaesthetic (castration, ear-tagging, tail-docking, mulesing and pizzle-dropping depending on flystrike prevention methods). To produce the desired fine wool, it is often desirable to underfeed the sheep. Since meat is not the main product, farmers don't care if their animals starve, unless it causes them to die, as they have been genetically selected to put their energy primarily into wool growth. Shearing invariably causes painful cuts that can become infected, as shearing is usually rushed because herds contain sheep in their thousands, whose individual needs are not met.
Reply
#36
Re: Childhood indoctrination
This argument again?

I think my response is usually something like the following:

I've been vegetarian since I was 5... blah blah blah... What other people eat is none of my business (with a few exceptions that aren't just because I'm vegetarian) ... blah... erm.... oh, and animas aren't like people with people emotions and shit.


I occasionally give up dairy and eggs and give the vegan thing ago but give up because I love cheese and milk chocolate...

Oh, and giving meat to children is certainly not "indoctrination." It's perfectly natural for humans to eat meat. We can survive with or without it just fine. It should be a personal choice. I personally won't be giving my children meat (if I have any) but once they're old enough to ask for it, I won't have a problem with them eating meat that someone else has prepared for them. Of course, I'd like them to be veggie, but because they want to, not because I am. But I'm probably not having kids, so whatever.
Reply
#37
RE: Childhood indoctrination
(June 2, 2013 at 9:45 am)Forbinator Wrote: But the key here is that intelligence is not the driving factor in determining whether someone deserves basic rights.

I answered this by stating that animals arent humans to which you gave this horrificly stupid reply:

Quote:So you're just reiterating that it's ok to eat animals, simply because they're animals. This is the same status quo bias as people against gay marriage saying "but marriage is between a man and a woman". Yes of course it is right now according to the law, but that's the whole problem that needs changing.

[Image: double-facepalm_medium.jpg]

Do you see this kind of behavior as a valid and respectable way of participating in a debate?!?!?!

[Image: 38336963.jpg]

[Image: keep-repeating-and-keep-repeating.png]

For the last time!!!!

Women! Lesbians! Gays! And even Dumbass redneck Inbreeds! ARE HUMANS!!!

Now stop repeating the same shit again and again because No one here is in the mood of repeating the same reply.


Quote:Hate and cruelty are actions. Whether that was what you intended is irrelevant to the outcome. Also, slaughterhouses are laws unto themselves. Cameras aren't even allowed in, unless animal rights activists somehow sneak in. Minimising pain is not enough, when the whole process could be eliminated entirely.

The entire process can only be eliminated by outlawing it - for which you need to provide the arguments for such a legal case.
And only because there are no cameras there, this does not mean that all companies will constantly break all rules.

Quote:And while we’re at it, if we’re using the behaviour of wild animals as an ethical reference point, I guess it’s ok if we throw our faeces at each other, rape each other and steal each other’s food?

Just as I thought it couldnt get any more stupid, you drop this bomb.

We humans are more advanced, we have something called Civilisation!

(not the pc game)
Reply
#38
RE: Childhood indoctrination
@"The Germans Are Coming": Actually I think you are the one repeating the same argument ad nauseum: "but we're humans, and they're only animals!" This argument is only relevant if you explain what differences you are referring to between species. The similarities are the survival instinct, will to live and ability to suffer (already mentioned multiple times). You have not provided any differences that are relevant to the debate.

And veganism is not a legal movement, it is consumer driven. I would love it to become illegal to kill animals for pleasure, but that won't happen until a majority of people are vegan.

And don't go calling me stupid; you're the one who made the comment about whether wolves ask permission of deer before they kill them. My reply simply demonstrated the absurdity of what you had said and how ridiculous it was to apply that behaviour to our civilisation.

(June 2, 2013 at 10:02 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: This argument again?

I think my response is usually something like the following:

I've been vegetarian since I was 5... blah blah blah... What other people eat is none of my business (with a few exceptions that aren't just because I'm vegetarian) ... blah... erm.... oh, and animas aren't like people with people emotions and shit.


I occasionally give up dairy and eggs and give the vegan thing ago but give up because I love cheese and milk chocolate...

Oh, and giving meat to children is certainly not "indoctrination." It's perfectly natural for humans to eat meat. We can survive with or without it just fine. It should be a personal choice. I personally won't be giving my children meat (if I have any) but once they're old enough to ask for it, I won't have a problem with them eating meat that someone else has prepared for them. Of course, I'd like them to be veggie, but because they want to, not because I am. But I'm probably not having kids, so whatever.
I hope that one day you are able to shift the focus away from yourself and towards the victims. When an action has a victim, I think it's very difficult to consider it a "personal choice", as the action necessarily affects others.
Reply
#39
RE: Childhood indoctrination
@germans: those ad hominems are below the usual high quality of your read-worthy contributions and also won't convince anyone.
"Men see clearly enough the barbarity of all ages — except their own!" — Ernest Crosby.
Reply
#40
RE: Childhood indoctrination
(June 2, 2013 at 10:18 am)Forbinator Wrote: I hope that one day you are able to shift the focus away from yourself and towards the victims. When an action has a victim, I think it's very difficult to consider it a "personal choice", as the action necessarily affects others.

This is the point of morality being subjective and therefore consensual. You call them victims, we call them food. You feel it is horrible. We feel that they, like ourselves, are part of the food chain. You have exhorted us to rise above our base animal nature. We embrace our animal nature.

Since our sentiments in this matter do not overlap your appeal to our moral nature has failed. It happens. It doesn't mean there won't be many more matters where we would share moral sentiments. Just not this one.

As I've already said I applaud you and yours for eating low on the food chain. (Can I get an amen for the fact that I've not and will not be breeding?) We're both contributing to a related problem.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Education vs. Indoctrination Leonardo17 32 1506 February 12, 2024 at 3:03 am
Last Post: Goosebump



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)