"I considered myself atheist, but I still talked to god"

[Terr]

Came across this statement on a a christian forum, is still the reason why sooooo many ex-atheists that pop up cannot explain why they found a belief in god. Never lost it in the first place.

[Savannahw]

Personally, that is what I say when someone asks me why I don't believe in their belief. I never believed, even growing up in church. (maybe that's a cop out maybe I just don't want to go through a long conversation.) Maybe ex-atheists say that so they don't have to admit it was for a girl, or money, or they are just dumb. I digress.

[ReasonableRuben]

No true Scotsman.

We need more information on specific persons that claim they stopped believing in God and then started again in order to justifiably make the claim you're making. Although it's hard to pin down what you're actually claiming. My best attempt is "A lot of theists who claim to be ex-atheists were actually never really atheists."

This seems to me to be making a most presumptuous psychoanalytical inference from non-existent evidence. Even if you knew of a theist who went under-cover, even, as an atheist and then falsely claimed to re-convert to theism, the inference to the "so many" is still unjustified.

[The Grand Nudger]

? Rueben.......a person who talks to god - is going to have a hard time explaining that conversation - what with being an atheist, are they not?

[ReasonableRuben]

? Rueben.......a person who talks to god - is going to have a hard time explaining that conversation - what with being an atheist, are they not?

Is it really that hard to believe that a person might be so religiously indoctrinated that they might still say the Lord's prayer every morning, out of simple habit,(and take this to mean "talking to God" in a colloquial sense) whilst at the same time lacking the belief that the God, which they previously had believed to exist and to whom the prayer is addressed, actually exists?

---

In any case, it certainly is not the case, at least by any rule of logic, that because person P prays, person P is necessarily an atheist.

[The Grand Nudger]

You've done a marvelous job at inventing a narrative. I would take the statement for precisely what was said. Does your contention hinge upon this narrative you've invented? Since when did they "stop then start" anyway? Another great work of narrative flair on your part, if you don't mind the compliment.

I agree, people pray all the time (I'm guessing that's what you were trying to say there at the end) without having any sort of god-belief, but since we're talking about talking to god - how that has any relevance is beyond me..unless..gasp shock and horror, the faithful say things that they know full well are absolute bullshit.

[ReasonableRuben]

..and you have done a marvelous job of pointing out the obvious. Namely, that I have done a marvelous job at inventing a narrative. A narrative, mind you, in which there is no logical contradiction, and in which also the person in question at one point in time genuinely disbelieves in the existence of God but still prays,(and takes this to mean "talking to God" in a colloquial sense) thereby showing that it is possible for a person to disbelieve in the existence of God, and still talk to Him, which is my "contention."

Since when did they "stop then start" anyway?

I guess it isn't that obvious, so I'll explain: Terr, in his OP, is referring to a theist who claims to have converted from theism, to atheism, and then back to theism. Hence the "stop then start," as you put it. Hope that helps.

[The Grand Nudger]

..and you have done a marvelous job of pointing out the obvious. Namely, that I have done a marvelous job at inventing a narrative. A narrative, mind you, in which there is no logical contradiction, and in which also the person in question at one point in time genuinely disbelieves in the existence of God but still prays,(and takes this to mean "talking to God" in a colloquial sense) thereby showing that it is possible for a person to disbelieve in the existence of God, and still talk to Him, which is my "contention."

B-mine So, yes, your contention did hinge upon the narrative you invented. Would have been easy to just say yes, wouldn't it? An atheist speaking to a god is about the clearest contradiction one can imagine. A person praying to a god they don;t believe in is equally as mystifying - but people do strange shit all the time, granted. You're stretching these ideas beyond the point of breaking, in my opinion, btw.

I guess it isn't that obvious, so I'll explain: Terr, in his OP, is referring to a theist who claims to have converted from theism, to atheism, and then back to theism. Hence the "stop then start," as you put it. Hope that helps.

Where, all I see is someone who claimed to be an atheist before finding god or some such. You assume the person deconverted, sure, I don't (like I said, cool story, bro). I think that a person who makes that sort of statement is just an asshole with a taste for bullshit. We get a few of em round these parts now and again. It's not obvious, Rueben, because it isn't in the claim - you've invested that claim with a claim of your own (more than one).

[ReasonableRuben]

B-mine So, yes, your contention did hinge upon the narrative you invented. Would have been easy to just say yes, wouldn't it? An atheist speaking to a god is about the clearest contradiction one can imagine. A person praying to a god they don;t believe in is equally as mystifying - but people do strange shit all the time, granted.

I appreciate this. I guess it would've been easier for me to just say "yes," but it wouldn't have been reflective of my views on the matter. It's a technicality, but my contention doesn't hinge upon that specific narrative. i.e. I could make up a different narrative in which an atheist prays.

Where[?]

Enter grammar:

It seems to me that the theist in question could most plausibly be seen to be using the word "still" in either of two senses.

1. the conjunctive sense, to mean "and yet; but yet; nevertheless" as in: "It was futile, still they fought."

2. the adverbial sense, to mean "at this or that time; as previously" as in: "Are you still here?"

I take the "still" in "I still talked to God" to be used in the later sense, indicating that he had a kind of residual prayerfulness from his past theism, even when he was an atheist. I could be wrong though.

Terr, do you have the original statement?

[Whateverist]

Is it really that hard to believe that a person might be so religiously indoctrinated that they might still say the Lord's prayer every morning, out of simple habit,

Well, I still say "goddammit" and "God only knows" and "Jesus fucking H. Christ" and .. you get the picture. But I never, when I really need some cards to survive in a tournament, pray for any help. It just doesn't occur to me. But maybe it does for others.