Why is belief in a higher power required?

[Foxaèr]

I wanted you to know that unless one studies scripture one can not come to a understanding of scripture.

The only difference between an atheist studying the bible and a fundamentalist Christian studying the bible is that the atheist does not wear rose colored glasses while studying it. As Asimov stated, Properly read, the bible is the most potent force of atheism ever conceived.

[max-greece]

"I wanted you to know that unless one studies scripture one can not come to a understanding of scripture."

Which implies you think I haven't. One day we might have that conversation - but we will end up with so many TL;DR posts this might not be the place to do it.

[Ryantology]

I did not miss the point at all, I knew what you were doing and I understand how atheist see the Bible, I wanted you to know that unless one studies scripture one can not come to a understanding of scripture. You wouldn't think you could cherry pick text books in school and pass test with a knowledge of the text. I hate multiple choice test, to me that is cheating, an explanation of text shows what one actually understands of the text.

Prove that your interpretation is more correct than ours.

[Godscreated]

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It's to bad they did not teach you about God's justice, then you would see that what happens when people disobey God, I know it sounds severe but, the omniscient God knows best.

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Why is death the penalty for disobedience? Would you prefer that governments brought back the death sentence if you're so accepting of the concept?

I believe in the death penalty, there are some crimes so bad that a person deserves to die for the horrific crime, we just went through trials for crimes so terrible they would be unacceptable even in hell, yet none of the criminals got the death penalty, most here were disappointed. I doubt that anyone would ever feel safe around these men, they are truly animals of the lowest kind.

So please show me the word rape in those scripture verses, I seemed to have missed it, or maybe it's hidden in the Hebrew or Greek, which I'm sure you can point out, right.

"Thus says the Lord...He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight."

You're making this harder than what it is.

Oh, I see sex is now rape period, how in the world can you get rape from that verse, I'm not the one making it hard. Your trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

So how do you know that God did not allow these wives an eye for David's neighbor, and the neighbor for the wives, this would be a worse punishment, David's pride would be torn apart.

I'm not quite following here. What do you mean allow these wives an eye?

They were turned on to each other, slipping around, cheating on David, committing adultery just as David did.

Before I get into these verses I have a question for you specifically, why do you not object to other nations during that time of destroying cities and people in the same or even worse manner, you would call them great battles but never an atrocity. Never once have you mentioned such atrocities by other nations, why pick only on the Israelites? You call me biased.

I never said other battles weren't atrocities. You're putting words in my mouth.

Sorry, I was not trying to put words in your mouth, what I was getting at is you nor anyone else ever says anything about the godless nations of that time destroying others.

I'm focusing on this tribe because it's the one that your particular religion defends. If your religion had sprung out of the Nazis, then we'd be discussing Hitler's actions... simple as that.

As a Christian I do not defend what the Israelites did when they disobeyed God, I'm not even defending God, He surly doesn't need my approval. I'm trying to get people to understand there's more to scripture than they realize, when one spends time in studying scripture things will become clearer, that is unless one is just plain ol' stubborn. If I never talk about Hitler again...well that would be fine with me.

Yes they attacked as God directed, but what makes you believe these people were innocent, do you have some historical records that call the Midianites the most innocent people, if so please share it with us? How about the five kings and Balaam son of Beor, do you have history on them no one is privy too?

Because a handful of men were naughty, you think it's ok to massacre the rest of the men and their children in that city/town who had nothing to do with it?

Like I have said the people of Israel made an oath with God and if they disobeyed the nation would be punished, this story is just part of many evils the Israelites did. By using the word naughty you're trying to trivialize the great sins committed. They were trying to commit unnatural acts upon a man and when they could not do that they spent the night raping his concubine over and over until they killed her. Then the men of Benjamin aided in their crime by hiding them.

Here's what happened go to numbers 25:16-18 and you will see that God said to Moses to destroy the Midianites, because through Balaam they lead Israel into Baal worship. So these innocent people you speak so highly of actually are guilty of trying to destroy Israel through the worship of the false god Baal of Peor. The five kings were leaders of Midianite tribes that wandered these lands near Caanan to find grass for their flocks of sheep and goats. The Israelites were to have killed all the people even the women and children, however the Israelite men disobeyed and Moses rebuked them. Moses allowed only the virgin women to survive.

Oh, so a disagreement of god worship justifies killing innocent children?

All were to be killed because even those children would have tried to lead Israel astray in the future, how do I believe this, because it happened to Israel by other nations they did not wipe out. You seem to forget all God did for His people from the time He removed them from Egypt. God was trying to protect His children from the evil of Canaan.

Just where does it say that in the scripture verses you've given, I read them several times just to make sure I did not miss that quote you made, are you parroting again. You have not given any Biblical proof God is evil or even commanded evil, you have given only your thoughts and they do not match the verses you have given.

Enough's enough GC... I've explicitly shown you where God directly commands these evils. Stop avoiding the cold, hard facts.

You can call God's justice evil if you want, that in no way makes it true. You cherry pick and then say look at what I have found, when in reality you've discovered only the result of what sin brings. You are the one who needs to get real and study the scriptures before you try to run them down.

You need to prove to us that God commanded murder and rape and it would be refreshing to see a nonbeliever think for himself instead of parroting others.

Enough of your games! Explain right now how the killing, slavery and sleeping with people's wives is in any way justified. These atrocities are *in* your book, that's fact. But you know why you won't explain yourself? Because you have a two-fold problem:

When God calls for something to happen to people whither He directly does it or works through man to cause it, there is a judgement God issues against said person/s and the pronounced punishment. God does nothing arbitrarily, God is not a despotic tyrant.

Why do innocent children get dragged into these punishments?

I've explained this till I'm tired of saying it, if you've not learned by now you'll never learn.

You mean you're beginning to see the light or did I misunderstand what you meant by "a good reason."

Philosophically speaking, a morally perfect being would naturally have a good reason for allowing/commanding immoral acts. I'm still waiting to hear these reasons that presumably let you sleep at night knowing the OT is perfectly moral and just.

I've never said the OT is morally just, it is a study book of our morally perfect God who is just in His judgement and punishment. I sleep well at night knowing He is watching over me.

The reason the Bible has bloodshed, slavery and sexually immoral act in it is because it's about God dealing with a sinful world.

So... he commands men to do sinful acts against a sinful world i.e. fights sin with sin?!

Now you're being ridiculous, I thought you smarter than this.

Tell me why is the world full of bloodshed, slavery that surpasses anytime in the past and sexually immoral acts, can you tell me why?

Because humanity is like any other creature in the animal kingdom; ruthless

No man is the ruthless creature, animals act only by their instinct, morality has nothing to do with their lives. If you see morality in animals it is you projecting it on them.

Oh we are reading the word of God and God did command punishment upon people after His judgement upon them, how many times must I say that, I mean really can't you understand.

Sure, he's punishing people. Remind me what innocent children and married women did wrong again to receive death/sex with another man?

No one is innocent and you are now trying to lump all situations into one pile, want work.

God does no evil and if you see that He does then that's on you. I can take most of scripture literally (some is parables and prophecy) and see the loving God of creation, why you can't is not a mystery to me I understand, it's within scripture.

I don't deny that there's acts of love here and there, but you try and make it seem like he's 100% good. I'm sorry, but in *no possible world* is killing children and passing off wives as objects a loving thing to do. How that's not evil is truly beyond me since it's a basic instinct that tells me it's most likely wrong.

He's 110% good, good is who He is, not what He practices, He can do nothing outside His nature and His nature is good. You do not have the mind or understanding of the omniscient God and neither do I, so a lot of this will go over our heads. No human is good in the sense that God is good, we will never be able to truly understand what is just and right, that is only for the omniscient God.

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Here you go again demanding I do something, you want to guide me into admitting your right and I'm wrong. Well, guess what I'm not a pig with a ring in my nose to be guided around by you or any other human. My guidance comes from the loving hand of God. You and Esquilax refuse to read scripture and try with an open mind to understand it, I know it is hard, even difficult at times and sometimes it takes years of study to find answers to questions, they are there though. God's proven Himself to me numerous times, so when I find a subject difficult to understand I trust in Him, in time He will answer, in His perfect timing, but like I said until then He's got my respect and I'll trust Him.

I have God and Heaven's Army on my side, so your threats are meaningless, God reigns on high, praise Him forever.

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I can't speak for everyone here, but being a Free Thinker I make it my #1 priority to freely think; I'm willing to consider what you have to say, but so far you *haven't* given me a single reason why it's fine to kill innocent people and treat women in a degrading manner. I'm all ears... so how about you *actually* begin with your apologetics already...

I've given you the reasons, you are refusing to acknowledge them in any way, you just keep repeating the same ol' stuff over and over, you must be deaf in understanding and I know you are keeping your eyes shut.
I'm tired of this, having to answer the same questions over and over. Right know I'm in a discussion with Esquilax in this thread and I'm going to concentrate on what we have going. If you are serious about learning anything about or from scripture just read what we write because I'm not going to repeat what I've communicated with him.

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I wanted you to know that unless one studies scripture one can not come to a understanding of scripture.

The only difference between an atheist studying the bible and a fundamentalist Christian studying the bible is that the atheist does not wear rose colored glasses while studying it. As Asimov stated, Properly read, the bible is the most potent force of atheism ever conceived.

Yep, atheist use their brained washed minds to cherry pick through scripture, you are like so many atheist, no original thoughts of your own, just parrot those who come before you.

[Ryantology]

Yep, atheist use their brained washed minds to cherry pick through scripture, you are like so many atheist, no original thoughts of your own, just parrot those who come before you.

Prove that your interpretation is more correct than ours.

[Esquilax]

I believe in the death penalty, there are some crimes so bad that a person deserves to die for the horrific crime, we just went through trials for crimes so terrible they would be unacceptable even in hell, yet none of the criminals got the death penalty, most here were disappointed. I doubt that anyone would ever feel safe around these men, they are truly animals of the lowest kind.

Wow, this is really low hanging fruit since just a page or two ago you were fine with the death penalty for children simply for the crime of being born to parents who went against the word of god...

Oh, I see sex is now rape period, how in the world can you get rape from that verse, I'm not the one making it hard. Your trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I was seriously going to let all this go, since it's apparent that we aren't going to ever reach an understanding on what is and isn't immoral where god is concerned, but come on; just use a little logic. You're still arguing that because the word rape isn't present, the action of rape did not occur, despite the fact that a simple relationship with reality tells us that, in the situation depicted it would be highly unlikely for consent to have been given.

Once again, words do not determine action, actions do; if I described a murder by calling it "being knocked out with permanence," I am still describing a murder, I've just used a circuitous language choice. It's just a fairly interesting linguistic trick, writers use it all the time; there was this cool short story I read once where the writer worded the scene in such a way as to make one assume he was describing the pruning of a garden, but when we reach the end and receive more context, we realize that all along what is being described is the dismemberment of a body. Now, given what we know at the ending, does that mean the writer was describing one thing- the garden- for the majority of the story, and then a murder at the end? No, of course not; he was describing a murder all along. Because the words don't determine the actions.

They were turned on to each other, slipping around, cheating on David, committing adultery just as David did.

But that's you throwing chaff. There's nothing in the passage to indicate that.

Sorry, I was not trying to put words in your mouth, what I was getting at is you nor anyone else ever says anything about the godless nations of that time destroying others.

Oh, that's an easy one; there's no assumption from people like you that those other slaughters were just or moral. We all think those are bad, there's nothing to debate over; however, when we come to the Isrealites and killings surrounding your god, there's suddenly some disagreement, and thus a need to point out the immorality there.

Like I have said the people of Israel made an oath with God and if they disobeyed the nation would be punished, this story is just part of many evils the Israelites did. By using the word naughty you're trying to trivialize the great sins committed. They were trying to commit unnatural acts upon a man and when they could not do that they spent the night raping his concubine over and over until they killed her. Then the men of Benjamin aided in their crime by hiding them.

Incidentally, why didn't they just go and deal with the men responsible? Show a little restraint? Why didn't god just take them out? He's shown to have no issues with messing with people who break the rules elsewhere, after all.

Yep, atheist use their brained washed minds to cherry pick through scripture, you are like so many atheist, no original thoughts of your own, just parrot those who come before you.

What Ryantology said. It's always interesting to me how unwilling theists are to actually do this.

[Godscreated]

@ Esquilax, You are looking at all this through a narrow tube, picking at things without looking at the total picture, I've explained this over and over and yet you ignore the facts from scripture. I can not see carrying this on since you ignore the reasons I've shown through scripture, it seems you only desire to tear down scripture and will ignore the facts to do so.

[justin]

In order to appeal to the masses, scapegoat behavior and gain support for social and political agendas. To oppress others and manipulate people.

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GC when will you stop with this denial and bow to zeus the almighty? We all love you and just wish you would do what is true and right. This Xtian fable is just that a fable. only through Zeus shall you find truth, peace, and purpose. accept zeus GC before it is to late!

[Foxaèr]

no original thoughts of your own, just parrot those who come before you.

Seems absolutely no different than Christian interpretation to me. After all, what a Christian family has learned regarding the interpretation of scripture merely gets passed down to the next generation verbatim.

I may offer atheist quotes from time to time, giving credit to the author, but by no means do I parrot what other atheists have learned in regards to studying the bible. I read the bible on my own, studied the scripture on my own from when I was a regular church going believer, and my logical mind simply could not accept the obviously misinterpreted scripture that theists around me gobbled up as though it was divine rather than atrocious.

[Esquilax]

@ Esquilax, You are looking at all this through a narrow tube, picking at things without looking at the total picture, I've explained this over and over and yet you ignore the facts from scripture. I can not see carrying this on since you ignore the reasons I've shown through scripture, it seems you only desire to tear down scripture and will ignore the facts to do so.

Yes, you've explained the total picture in your eyes, and I've explained to you that I find that justification entirely lacking, given the actions we're talking about. You say it was for the greater good, that it was in fulfillment of god's will, you've even given the greater context of what bad blood there was between the groups.

And I don't care.

Mostly, your actual justification amounts to "it was in accordance with god's will, and is therefore justified." That's not a justification at all; it's just the excuse you're willing to swallow for the amoral ravings in the bible. You might be willing to accept the things you've said as something truthful and worthy of consideration, but don't you dare pretend that the reason I don't agree with you is because I don't know the whole story. The truth is, you've given nothing to agree with; you've just said that what the book represents is what the book represents, and hence you take it as true and right.

I don't. But then, I'm not looking at it with a presupposition that every word of it is divine truth. I'm looking at it with my feet planted on the ground.