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"Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
#1
"Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
I haven't ever really put much thought into this area of the theist vs atheist debate, but after a Christian friend shared one too many preachy photos/text about the topic on Facebook, I decided to engage in a discussion with him. I'm eagerly awaiting his response on what I think is quite a unique thought. I thought I'd also write it up here because, believe it or not, I really enjoy hearing the theist's p.o.v. even if I don't show it. Anyways, here goes:

Homosexuality is a choice, so the theist says. This means that, presumably, the person in question *willingly*... *willy*-ngly... ahem, *willingly* chose to sexually pursue the same gender, hence the "choice". What I find amusing is that if that's the case, then the theist is being inconsistent with what they know about *themselves* - rendering their belief that "homosexuality is a choice" internally contradictory. This means that to apply said belief externally to everyone else is just as contradictory.

Why are they being inconsistent? Well, they should ask themselves this: "have I ever had sexual feelings for the same gender?" If the answer is "no", then that means two things:

(1) oddly, homosexuality is a choice, yet *they* themselves are excluded from apparently being able to make said choice.

(2) if (1) is true, then it means for as long as they've known, their orientation was out of their control if they can't seem to ever have a sexual attraction for their own gender.

If they agree with both, then the only sensible conclusion to draw about homosexuals is that they weren't heterosexuals by default who turned homosexual. The theist himself should recognise this from their *own* inability to make that choice. What I particularly like though, is that for the theist to reasonably say that "homosexuality is a choice", it can only mean one thing: they themselves are attracted to both the opposite gender *as well as* the same gender. Because now the choice *is* there, and all it means to be heterosexual is that they are continually suppressing their sexual feelings for the same gender, thus not choosing homosexuality (and conversely, the homosexual obviously choosing not to suppress those feelings).

I will conclude by asking you fellow theists a question that fits your [presumably consistent] belief on sexuality:

Who was the last person of the same gender that you had a crush on?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#2
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
Actually, I don't care if homosexuality is a choice. I don't think it's anyone's business if it is or if it isn't, but of course logically it'd be as much of a choice as heterosexuality is, which has been confirmed scientifically. Anyways, I just don't see the point of that argument.

Hm, last person of same gender ... never had a crush on a girl.
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#3
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
Easy: That chick from Resident Evil. Smile
Any spelling mistakes are due to my godlessness!
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#4
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
The issue of whether it's a choice is irrelevant to me. Even if homosexuality were a choice, it would be wrong to treat homosexuals differently than under the law.

To me, entering the debate re: choice only implicitly legitimizes the position that it's OK to oppress people who do things some people don't like.
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#5
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
(August 6, 2013 at 11:19 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Actually, I don't care if homosexuality is a choice. I don't think it's anyone's business if it is or if it isn't, but of course logically it'd be as much of a choice as heterosexuality is, which has been confirmed scientifically. Anyways, I just don't see the point of that argument.

Heterosexuality is a choice? I can't ever remember sitting down and thinking "hmm.. willies or.. 'kitties'". I've liked girls for as long as I've known.

Quote:Hm, last person of same gender ... never had a crush on a girl.

So isn't that strong personal evidence that you couldn't ever *choose* to be a lesbian? Those sorts of sexual thoughts just aren't springing to mind, which means the choice of becoming a lesbian is almost impossible.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#6
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
@FallentoReason, you misunderstood, I didn't say hetero/homo are choices, I meant the possibilities of both being choices are equal. And if they are choices for some people, it's none of my business.
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#7
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
(August 6, 2013 at 11:34 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: @FallentoReason, you misunderstood, I didn't say hetero/homo are choices, I meant the possibilities of both being choices are equal. And if they are choices for some people, it's none of my business.

Aw, fair enough.

If we're talking probabilities of either being a choice, I'd have to go they are both equally 0 :p

To anyone that's curious

I think what motivated/motivates me to discuss if it's a choice or not is the way in which the theist reacts to homosexuals. If it isn't a choice, then their hatred is identical to that of a racist: hating someone for something that was out of their control. This gets me worked up more than anything in the world and I won't sit idly by and let people such as my friend treat homosexuals like their intrisic characteristic is something "bad" and "wrong".
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#8
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
(August 6, 2013 at 11:15 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Why are they being inconsistent? Well, they should ask themselves this: "have I ever had sexual feelings for the same gender?" If the answer is "no", then that means two things:

(1) oddly, homosexuality is a choice, yet *they* themselves are excluded from apparently being able to make said choice.

(2) if (1) is true, then it means for as long as they've known, their orientation was out of their control if they can't seem to ever have a sexual attraction for their own gender.

Okay, we understand this to be true, we know that this choice shit is kind of irrational, but I think you're missing the sheer power of theistic magical thinking.

I think the source of the logical disconnect here is that, to a theist this actually has nothing to do with sex at all, since most religions tend to treat any sexual activity the same way. No, to the people broaching this choice argument, the choice they're thinking of isn't heterosexuality vs homosexuality, it's piety vs sin. To them, the reason they haven't had any attractions to the same gender is because they are saved, they aren't afflicted with sin, they are strong enough to deny lust to the point that the devil won't even try to give them homo cooties.

Homosexuality being a choice, to them, has nothing to do with logic at all, it's simply a byproduct of their theology; homosexuality must be a choice because it's a sin, and all sins need to be, at root, choices, because they can't square the idea of god creating people with sinful natures.

It's the reason why, on the other hand, you've got the "love the sinner, hate the sin" folks, whose beef is mainly with homosexual sex, and have no issue with celibate gays; it's just a particularly bad variant of the larger sin of sexual pleasure, to them.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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#9
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
(August 6, 2013 at 11:36 am)FallentoReason Wrote: To anyone that's curious

I think what motivated/motivates me to discuss if it's a choice or not is the way in which the theist reacts to homosexuals. If it isn't a choice, then their hatred is identical to that of a racist: hating someone for something that was out of their control. This gets me worked up more than anything in the world and I won't sit idly by and let people such as my friend treat homosexuals like their intrisic characteristic is something "bad" and "wrong".

To me, if it is a choice, then hating homosexuals would be equal to hating someone for preferring chinese food to pizza.
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#10
RE: "Homosexuality is a choice" and its paradox
(August 6, 2013 at 11:15 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I will conclude by asking you fellow theists a question that fits your [presumably consistent] belief on sexuality:

Who was the last person of the same gender that you had a crush on?

Do you really expect a theist on this forum to to reply to this? Let alone to engage on a civilised level with you on this subject?

We only have theists who either accept homosexuality as part of the human condition or who are biggoted (maybe even closet case) and will only attempt to throw in some cheap punches which completly ignore what you wrote in the first place.
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