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Current time: March 28, 2024, 9:08 pm

Poll: Should abortion be...
This poll is closed.
Legal in all cases
32.14%
9 32.14%
Legal in most cases
46.43%
13 46.43%
Illegal in most cases
17.86%
5 17.86%
Illegal in all cases
0%
0 0%
Don't know
3.57%
1 3.57%
Total 28 vote(s) 100%
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Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
#21
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
(August 21, 2013 at 1:22 pm)Godschild Wrote: Who gave you permission to declare this a social issue, your socialist beliefs undermine the morality that has keep this world going, I suppose murder for you is nothing but a thing.

Who gave you permission to declare that it's murder?
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura

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#22
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
Well, now, I'll tell ya what: Let's go ahead and make abortion fully illegal. After all, it's a LIFE you're saving here, correct? If this is the assertion, then HOW that life begins oughtn't enter into it. No exceptions for rape, incest, endangerment of the mother's life. We're saving a LIFE here!! Isn't this the logical conclusion of this way of thinking? It's all God's will, right?

And when enough of your sisters, mothers, wives, girlfriends die or develop serious complications from coat-hanger abortions performed in back rooms -- which is how things in fact were, prior to Roe v. Wade -- perhaps you'll understand the true intent and impact of that decision.

And while we're at it, let's get something straight: No woman ever says to herself, "Hot diggity! I'm going to use ABORTION as my first line of birth control!" No woman is eager to face this decision. So perhaps we can all agree it's not a decision made with cavalier disregard.

Access to birth control is by no means a golden assurance that unwanted pregnancies will not occur. They happen a lot more than you may want to believe, and they have nothing to do with carelessness on the part of the woman. Young hormones running amok. Husbands who force themselves on their wives... just this once. A birth control pill taken just one time a few hours late. A leaking diaphram. How many of you fellows rode bareback a time or two, though you almost always routinely use a condom? Get real about how this happens.

I'm so goddamned sick of hearing men sit around and debate about what I may or may not do with my uterus. You want to know how important this procedure is to women? Ask them. Seriously -- the next time you find yourself in a group of women, ask them WITHOUT JUDGMENT how many of them have actually had an abortion. You'll be shocked, I promise you.

Prevention the first line of defense? Of course. You bet. Goes without saying! But don't presume to foist your academic views on me or other females about the real consequences of following through with an unsupported, unwanted pregnancy. You sincerely have no clue.
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#23
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
(August 21, 2013 at 1:57 pm)Raeven Wrote: And while we're at it, let's get something straight: No woman ever says to herself, "Hot diggity! I'm going to use ABORTION as my first line of birth control!" No woman is eager to face this decision. So perhaps we can all agree it's not a decision made with cavalier disregard.

^This!
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura

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#24
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
(August 21, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Slave Wrote: Well, you've outright dismissed the fact that morals exist within a societal framework.

No I did not.

My point is that social stability and the prevention of misery comes before whatever moral views are cooked up within the mind of some deranged religious fanatic who choses to ignore the potential misery that would result of his views being put into action and who does not represent a significant part of the population.

Quote:Since we are assuming that morality is subjective here. One thing that is true about how humans work, is that our morals change and adapt in various ways and societal attitudes and beliefs affect them. It's brought up often but slavery is a great example of this. You might be forgiven for agreeing with slavery prior to their emancipation, because your society told you it was okay. Society told you it was okay because people's attitudes and beliefs, that dictate their moral values, change the fabric of society.

Can you explain in any way what this has to do with what I wrote?


Quote:Similarly abortion is viewed as okay by many because this is what our society tells us. Medical establishments (I am discounting the US as it is a religious hotbed), provide pregnant women with information on abortion should they wish to have one by default. They also encourage women to consider abortion should their fetus be detected as having Downs. Why is this the common thought? Science? Not really, since science neither condones nor objects to abortion. It's what we do with the information we are dealt. Prior to Woe v Wade, this was the reality for women:

Quote:Before 1973, single women who got pregnant were fired from their jobs. Younger ones were sent to maternity homes for unwed mothers and their children were put up for adoption. Married women who got pregnant were forced to carry pregnancies to term regardless of their circumstances — even if they had so many children that they couldn't afford to feed another one; even if they had metastasized cancer; even if their fetuses couldn't live outside the womb because these fetuses had developed without a heart or brain.

Are you trying to make a case arguing against anything I posted before?

What you posted here underlines what I previously wrote.

Quote:Back then, women had a legitimate reason to desire the legality of abortion. They had limited or no access to birth control. Women were discriminated against in the workplace, whether they were single mothers or no. All these factors combined and it's understandable why Roe v Wade would be seen as a saving grace for millions of women. But times have changed.

"Times have changed." Awww how sweet.

I do not doubt that there are people who have abortions for reasons other than their own security within society. Yet that is not an excuse to make a step back into 1950 as proposed by the fucknuts here. I have made my point clear enought; Abortion helps women who would find themselves in socialy unstable situations when carrying out a preagnancy and being a mother. That is a reality and no number of whining arround phrases as "But Times are changing" will change that very fact. So the possition I have still stands, if you are against abortion in total - provide the blueprint for a social structure which would prevent women from falling beneath the povertyline into misery when pregnant, without cutting thir individual liberties and oppertunities within society. If you cant - stop whining and appealing to emotions like some fucking conartist snakeoil salesman.

Quote:Women have access to birth control, of various forms, as do men. Women are allowed maternity leave, and (like I said, depending on whether you live in the US or not) are entitled to maternity leave with pay. I don't know where you got your information about mums being "not exactly the most wanted thing on the jobmarket" from, and am curious to know your sources. I am a single mum, and can find work just as easily as any other women. It comes down to skills, availability, experience and qualifications, not marital and motherhood status.

Your personal expiriences, as amazing as you may think of them to be, do not provide enought data to project on society as a whole.

http://www.statistik.at/web_de/statistik...index.html

http://www.dji.de/bibs/218/ErlerBeitragD...ium.dt.pdf

http://www.bmfsfj.de/RedaktionBMFSFJ/Bro...b=true.pdf

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschlan...07845.html

http://www.iab.de/de/informationsservice...b2111.aspx

http://www.bmfsfj.de/RedaktionBMFSFJ/Bro...b=true.pdf

The picture is clear, more than half of all single parents depend on social services which were actualy put in place for people below the poverty line - meaning that most single parents fall below the poverty line. Insuficiant childcare institutions complicate the situation further by forcing parents to stay with their child rather than going to work. Those who can work often work more than one job.

The beauty of a transparent democracy is that every study ordered to be conducted by a ministry is available to the public. Now you need to find a german translator.

Quote:So why do we still need abortions when pregnancies can be easily prevented? We're justifying abortion with lazy, half-measured assumptions about the state of our social system and women's rights. Abortions were legalized not for this, but to assist medical practitioners who were afraid of the legal rammifications of performing them on women. A little known fact, that very few seem to be aware of, but interesting nonetheless.

We???????

Since when do you speak for me!?
Since when do you know my opinions enought to represent me?
Since when do you have the authority to represent me?
When did I give you the authority to represent me?
When did anyone on this forum ever give you the authority to represent them?!!

As you mentioned before:

Quote:Baseless projection and does not belong in a discussion like this.

So you just gave a nice bite into to your own ass.



Quote:Morality is important. How we decide to view one act or another from a moral standpoint is, and always will be, important. Morality and social attitudes frame our world history. They can change the course of history. To denote the moral and ethical implications of abortions as being nothing more than a stab at women who belong in the kitchen and using it as an excuse to keep them down, is lazy, lazy work on your part.

Morality as it is enacted within a a countries judiciary is determined through expirience through history and compromise through debating the various opposing attitudes, whilest constantly keeping the realities of the social framework in mind.

It is not determined by a bunch of fringe fanatics harrasing citizens with their opinions and being so pushy that any ordenary person would chase them off their property with an axe or call the police.



Quote:Baseless projection and does not belong in a discussion like this.

Baseless projection is not baseless.

You have clearly not read a single argument brought forward by the religious anti abortion freakshow represented on this forum. A bunch of halfwits who are incapable of providing suggestions for alternative social structures which would make abortion a overdue practice.
Instead everything they do is an endless tedious and fuck awfull clusterfuck of endlessly repeating selfserving mental masturbation in the form of an halfwitted appeal to emotion by endlessly repeating words like "baby murder" baby holocaust" baby killer", which is occasionaly seasoned with some outragous "woman march back to the stove and cook the fucking meal" style mysogeny.

Quote:Social change occurs in stages. Discussion of the topic and debating it is just one way to achieve change, albeit a small and arguably insignificant one on a larger scale. You think every social rights movement began with people just deciding to picket the US Senate one day without knowing why or what they were doing it for?

Can you point out the exact phrase in which I write that?


No? Not suprising, you just added that because you thought it sounded nice, didn`t you. And that is mental masturbating.

Quote:You may not agree with opposing views but that doesn't mean those who you speak of don't care about the issue of abortion beyond using it as mental masturbation and achieving a sense of high and mightiness.

It has absolutly rats ass to do with me agreeing with them or not. My premise of asking for a viable and funktioning social alternative clearly underlines that I am willing to accept alternatives. In no place do I in anyway state an adamant possition which I refuse to have challenged by anyone in any way. So dont make things up, because I know what I write.

Quote:Funny as well, how many people upvote this comment. It's without any substance. But I guess this is what people do. We beef up those who agree with us despite what they may say. Herd mentality is a powerful thing.

Well....

Quote:Baseless projection and does not belong in a discussion like this.

Do you like biting your own ass?
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#25
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
Quote:Baseless projection and does not belong in a discussion like this.

Horseshit.

You've made your position clear. To you, morality...whatever the fuck that means....elevates the rights of a gob of goo over the rights of the mother. The religious fuckheads do so because their silly "god" (or rather a book of ancient mythology) tells them to. Your reasons are your own.

Thanks for your input.
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#26
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
(August 21, 2013 at 12:29 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I'm honestly not sure where I stand on abortion anymore, as I've been deeply rethinking my position. I know for certain, however, that it needs to be allowed in certain cases, such as when the the mother's life is in danger and pregnancy by rape.
What difference does this make? If abortion is wrong, why does it make a difference how the foetus got there?
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#27
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
Legal in most cases. If a baby is 9 months and about to be born and the mother just wants to abort it because she feels like it and has no good reason then I don't think that should be allowed, but I am no moral judge.
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#28
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
Abortion isn't murder, stupid, murder is defined as unlawful killing, and abortion is legal.
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#29
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
(August 21, 2013 at 2:57 pm)futilethewinds Wrote: Abortion isn't murder, stupid, murder is defined as unlawful killing, and abortion is legal.
So if abortion was illegal then it would be ok to call it murder?
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it" - Robert A. Heinlein
Would you blame sports car for an accident instead of drunk driver?
Good guy Ronald Reagan

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#30
RE: Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms
(August 21, 2013 at 3:08 pm)wwjs Wrote: So if abortion was illegal then it would be ok to call it murder?

If abortion is indeed murder, then every potential human being that's wasted is murder too. So no more masturbating or having periods.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura

Reply



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