Shutdown - The tea party`s last move?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Seeing this, the radical tea party wing of the republican party, which has the prime political goal to make Obama a failed president no matter how bad the consequences for the rest of the country would be, have mainly participated in and forced the goverment shutdown because of their goal to make this president a failure, by slicing down the slight economic recovery and attempting to sabotage the health care reform. With the war in Afghanistan ending and the economy in recovery the radical elements of the republican party are losing their talking points and therefor have to make sure that a failed democratic president will become their next talking point.

Sounds to me like a conspiracy, just as the one we have here. They say the same for the opposition here, right here in Turkey, that the opposition opposes the treasonous plan to negotiate with the terrorists in Turkey just to hurt the ruling party.
Well, I'm not saying that Obama supports terrorism or whatever, or that I oppose his policies, since its none of my business, really, I don't think much has really changed since he came-as a matter of fact, I see his fingers behind the treason that plagues the country today, as I saw the resurgence of terrorism with the coming of the Iraq war under Bush, I really can't say that either Obama, or Bush did anything that was even faintly beneficial for anyone, as a matter of fact, with him pulling out of Afghanistan, he has probably condemned all the Afghans who threw in their lot with the Americans to death.
Though no one probably cares about these, people find it easy to blame republicans for "conspiring to overthrow Obama by making him fail".
Simply for that, we have had arrests in Turkey, they have arrested anyone that has opposed the ruling party, which is by the way, heavily tied to the Obama government, as previously stated, not only intellectuals, but also high ranking military commanders that have previously served in the Turkish army.

Since I'm not American, I don't know how much my word weighs in your thread, though I can certainly say that nothing changed, except for the civil war that has erupted beneath our doorstep.
To me, both Bush and Obama are equally villains. And personally I find no real difference between the Democrats and the Republicans.

[Isun]

Then you haven't really paid much attention to politics in this country.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Fascism and other radical right wing ideologies are sometimes self-destructive toward their own country when they seek to achieve their political ends. In fact, their fanatical ideologies are sometimes self-destructive just in their very nature. We've seen this before in countries.

And you believe that republicans or the tea-party are "right wing" let alone radicals? I am a radical, I am a fanatic, and I am right wing, and I can tell you that these people who advocate nothing more than capitalism and as some do, the abolition of taxes and the total removal of the state from the public are not right-wing, let alone being radical and fanatical about their ideals as I am.
As I see the lack of complete devotion and their love of their own money and lives, I'd say that these men are not radicals. Neither do they have an ideology, to be honest, and if they do, what is it?

I remember when I was in school studying the rise of Nazism how there was nothing uniquely German about it.

Well, the very basic tenets of nationalism can apply to all nations who have a nationalistic movement. Other than that, they are unique to the point of their birth.
National socialism however had the luck of being born in the same time as the other nationalist and anti-communist movements were born, so it found people that it could associate itself with.

It's a disease that can infect any country under the right conditions and eternal vigilance is needed to keep it at bay.

I personally believe nationalism to be the cure. The real sickness, which is materialist individualism, is what actually runs rampart, and a healthy dose of collectivist and inspiring nationalism is required to cure it.

If you had told me during the 90s what was to come, what the right wing would be getting away with, I'd have said you were crazy. A war of aggression under false pretenses with no questions asked and no accountability?

Well, that's what happened. However is it the first time that it did in America? The whole USA is built on false pretenses and wars of aggression against the native americans, but no one really bothers to ask about them. So what really is different? They had oil, you had guns and the NATO. It figures.

And we'd actually re-elect that president? Impossible. I even remember saying in 2003 that if all Bush's claims about Iraq turn out not to be true, he'll be impeached so quickly his butt would leave skid marks through the rose garden.

As will all of Obama's claims about Qaddafi and Assad...Well, he simply does not seem to be very different from Bush, I'd say.
I hate partizans, partizans generally try to justify their own wrongdoings by citing the wrongdoings of a party that was formerly the ruling party.
That's what democracy brings you to. All about putting the blame to someone else.

American style fascism seems a lot more unhinged than the versions I've seen in other countries. The Italian fascists could make the trains run on time but the American version can't seem to govern at all.

Obviously you don't know much about Italian fascism as to call the tea-party and the republicans "fascists". They're not fascists, they're simply nothing but people who're just too "American", which means, greedy, and only concerned with their own selves. Do you think that they oppose the healthcare reform on political grounds? Do you even think that they have ever read Adam Smith or John Locke?
And if anything, those men were not fascists.

Our war of aggression in Iraq was so poorly planned that the entire occupation seemed improvised, as if our leaders really expected we'd be greeted with sweets and flowers and all would simply be well because we were there.

Of course, they were the same in Vietnam. And back then it was JFK who was the president, and he sure as hell was of the Democratic party.
And well, nothing is really well in anywhere where the internationalist mindset of America sets his foot upon. The mindset that you share with the republicans.

At home, the administration was so disastrous it all came crashing down in 2008. When out of power, all they can seem to do is sabotage.

Sabotage, sure. If they were as fanatical as you had said, I'd have expected an armed insurgency.

The good news is that their power and voting bloc are on the wane. The only way the GOP stayed in power in the House is by severe "gerrymandering" (if you're not familiar, its drawing voting districts in such obtuse ways as to isolate the opposition voters into one block and thereby give control to your side of as many districts as possible). The bad news is that radical right ideologies in any country are not known to go quietly into the night. As their power wanes, fascists become more desperate and more destructive. Hence what we're seeing now.

Well, a real ideology, a firm ideology, and an ideology that wants to change something does not go quitely into the night. They erupt in booms, just as it happened in Germany and Russia.
And who are these so-called tea-party guys? All they do, from what I see, is to go around wielding signs with Ayn Rand quotes on them, while accusing the opposing side with fascism. Pfft.

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Then you haven't really paid much attention to politics in this country.

Then please enlighten me.

[Raeven]

Great post, Diest. I agree with all you have said. I would also add the following:

In order to understand what's happening within the GOP and American government as a whole right now, you have to grasp some other nuances. They are fascinating and horrifying at the same time. The GOP has in fact divided into 3 different parties, each controlled by vastly competing interests.

The first could be characterized as the traditional, moderate Republicans. They're mostly fiscally conservative – they are appalled at what is happening at the moment with the debt ceiling -- can be socially indifferent, believe in a strong defense, don't particularly favor big government or big business. These guys are in a tough spot right now, and there aren't very many of them. Susan Collins, Jon Huntsman, Lisa Murkowski are a few that spring to mind as examples of this group.

The members of the second group are owned by big money, corporate interests. Their campaigns are fully financed by interests in big oil, big coal, big food (think Monsanto), banking and finance corporations. They are literally helpless whores whose votes are bought and paid for by these interests (there are quite a few Democrats who fall into this category, too, but I’m not speaking to that for purposes of this discussion). They can't afford to care about anything but what their puppet masters tell them to. Virtually none of it is good for the American populace as a whole -- only their corporate benefactors' bottom lines. Into this group you can put Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Darryl Issa, Eric Cantor. They were the folks driving the party throughout most of the Bush II Era.

The third group could be characterized as the Ideologues, because they are largely ideologically driven. You already know about their capacity for magical thinking -- and that's a big part of the problem. They can twist facts -- or ignore them completely -- to suit their world view to a staggering degree. They are the core of the Tea Party and many identify as Libertarians. They want small-to-non-existent government, virtually no taxes, no spending on anything, big believers in home schooling (and it shows), would do anything to overturn Roe v. Wade and make all abortion illegal. Many think the Ten Commandments should be the law of the land. They don't have a good grasp on how the economy works -- let alone how it interacts within a global context. They are suspicious of anyone not like them, reflexively distrust if not outright hate persons of differing races and creeds. They just want what they want, and they're sure they know best for everyone. These are your Ted Cruzes, Michelle Bachmanns, Sarah Palins, etc. They have been shamelessly used and manipulated by the second group, who could reliably goose them into voting for the Republican brand by ginning up emotional issues such as gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration, etc. The saddest thing is, they continue to be frequently manipulated through their values by Big Money -- and most don't even realize it. That's why they hate Obamacare. Some big businesses hate Obamacare (think Koch brothers). Unfortunately, the Ideologues have also become a force to be reckoned with in their own right. Big Money kind of has a wolf by the ear with them.

So now, all these competing interests are fighting like hell within the party. It makes it virtually impossible to reason or negotiate with them in any meaningful way – because Dems never know who they’re talking to. Sort of like The Three Faces of Eve. The Moderates and Big Money guys might go along with one way of thinking, only to be sabotaged by the Ideologues.

The Ideologues are running the Republican show at the moment. It’s not so much that they don’t care about the country – far from it. These folks are the ones flying their flags, clutching their bibles, marching off to fight our wars in our all-volunteer military. They fervently believe that they are big patriots who are helping the country by forcing it to “stop spending money we don’t have.” They don’t grasp the difference between establishing a budget (we haven’t had one since 2009) and the debt ceiling. They actually think that by failing to raise the debt ceiling, they are addressing the spending issue. Sadly, ignorance is at the heart of this mess – as it so often is.

Hopefully this lengthy explanation will help you to understand why we’re in the ridiculous fix we’re in, from my perspective. Just my opinion, of course.

[Minimalist]

Der Speigel fails to understand the concept of the republican "base." The republican liberal is extinct and the moderate is on the endangered species list. The ones who exist are terrified of having some nazi nut-bag challenge them in a primary where only registered republicans ( the aforementioned base) can vote.

Consider the level of abject stupidity depicted in this sign:



This is what the US is up against. In the 1850's the US had a "Know Nothing" party. This current bunch knows even less.

[Crossless2.0]

You are aware that people on the other side of the political fence similarly believe you all are deluded and slaves to government, among a plethora of other faults, right?

I'm not sure who this is directed at. If me, yes, I'm aware that's their line, but it misses the mark in my case. I would probably be a Republican if the party hadn't shifted so far right during my lifetime. Think of me as a member of that vanishing tribe without a party: the moderate Republican.

[sarcasticgeographer]

I am sick and tired of the misunderstanding on this forum about the motives of the tea party. I have been to many tea party rallies and I understand their motives. The primary goal of the tea party is to reduce government spending and to prevent over taxation. TEA in tea party stands for taxed enough already. There are a many races represented at these rallies and many good ideas exchanged. Since Obama has not taken any steps towards reducing our debt limit, then yes he is attacked for his fiscal policies. They also attack other republican ideals that have gotten us to where we are today. For instance, Bushes fiscal policies are not very popular either. The main goal is reducing debt spending, that is it.

That being said, politics separates us the people. The very people here stating that republicans are trying to criticize Obama are the very same people who have criticized George W. Bush. I don't see democrats rushing to protect Condeleeza Rice, Herman Cain, Allen West, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, nor any minority who stands against the liberal mantra. Also, there is a great tea party supporter named Kevin Jackson, who happens to be african american. I have seen democrats call him Uncle Tom for supporting the Tea Party. Why isn't that called racist?

Also, why do democrats claim that the democrat party isn't about big business? Really? Who is behind the democrat party, names like George Soros, Larry Page and the Google leviathan, most of Hollywood? Since when is Google, George Soros, and Hollywood not considered big business?

Anyone who thinks that a $17 trillion debt is not worth worrying about is deluding themselves and something needs to be done about our ever increasing debt.

That is why the tea party has come out, because previous republican politicians have not addressed spending nor our ever increasing debt.

[Airyaman]

You are aware that people on the other side of the political fence similarly believe you all are deluded and slaves to government, among a plethora of other faults, right?

I'm not sure who this is directed at. If me, yes, I'm aware that's their line, but it misses the mark in my case. I would probably be a Republican if the party hadn't shifted so far right during my lifetime. Think of me as a member of that vanishing tribe without a party: the moderate Republican.

I direct this towards people who like to simply trot out insults towards those on the other side...whatever side they are on. It all sounds the same, just different terms being used.

[John V]

In the current edition of the weekly journal "Der Spiegel" there is an essey giving a short analasys of the situation surrounding the current goverment shutdown. Might be interesting for some of the American members to read since it gives an outside perspective, but unfortunatly the essey has not yet been translated into english. I would like to post the basic claims given in that essey and ask the American members here if there is any truth to it or if the essey got it`s facts wrong.

The author claims that the American economy is on the road to recovery. The number of unemployed Americans is shrinking, consumtion is starting to rise and everything in the country points to recovery. Adding to that "the war on terror" will be coming to an end by 2014.
Seeing this, the radical tea party wing of the republican party, which has the prime political goal to make Obama a failed president no matter how bad the consequences for the rest of the country would be, have mainly participated in and forced the goverment shutdown because of their goal to make this president a failure, by slicing down the slight economic recovery and attempting to sabotage the health care reform. With the war in Afghanistan ending and the economy in recovery the radical elements of the republican party are losing their talking points and therefor have to make sure that a failed democratic president will become their next talking point.


I found these claims to be very interesting, but would like to have them varyfied by some American members of this forum. To me, the very idea of a political party is willing to sabotage the country simply to make their opponent look weak is something alien which would be impossible here.

I'd say the article sees the tea party as much more powerful and influential than it really is.

[Minimalist]

That is why the tea party has come out, because previous republican politicians have not addressed spending nor our ever increasing debt.

Where were they when Bush was running up the debt? Where were they when Reagan was running up the debt?

You know, people in Europe are heavily taxed. Far more so than in the US. The difference is they actually get something for the taxes they pay.