On the logic of nationalism

[kılıç_mehmet]

I don't know in which US state people speak an english that is as unintelligible as yours, but from what I could gather, America is a place that lacks even the most basic forms of social cohesion. They are not concerned with social justice, nor caring for their fellow kin. They lack the basic characteristics of a nation, and the people are only concerned with their own self-interest. Their familal values are degrading, and morality is waning, they are becoming more and more dependent on the brain and muscle power of foreigners that immigrate again, for personal gain.
A prominent Turkish nationalists had spoken about this many years ago, saying: "America is an abomination. A rootless collection of bandits. They will get what deserve. We as e a nation of extensive history and many humane values and virtues, should cut off every relation with them."

1930? I think you have confused your dates.
Nationalism was around for longer than that. And it aided in the creation of modern Ireland, India and many other countries.

So, in other words, go for insults and degrade America through media interpretation and avoid talking about what Turkey nationalism can actually bring to your nation... got it.

America has problems, but different regions have different issues and views. My point was cultural acceptance isn't what creates the problems in my country, which you seemed totally blind of while spewing your nonsense. Nationalism wont stop your short comings, it'll just create more.

We do not even need to do that. The USA is eventually going to destroy itself. Since it has no real roots, nothing that could provide social cohesion, the American government resorts to creating a public enemy image once in a while to create solidarity.

Turkish nationalism can bring more to my nation than American imperialism or international corporate interests. Obviously it can bring more than the rootless liberalism, cosmopolitanism, and other foreign ideologies that do not match out national character.
Indeed, nothing in this world is perfect, and neither are we. But I know that our shortcomings are due to a lack of nationalism, rather than the presence of it. It is due to a lack of nationalist sentiment that we get caught in the middle of things that do not concern us. It is due to a lack of nationalism that we turn a blind eye when foreigners come to buy our national resources. It is a lack of nationalism that pacifies us to a degree that we simply want to be left alone by criminals that walk our streets.
It is due to a lack of nationalism that we haven't hanged every one of the two-faced assholes in the parliament.
It is due to a lack of nationalism that we bow down to minorities.
It is due to a lack of nationalism that we turn a blind eye to the deaths and torture that our brethren endure in Iraq, China and Iran.
It is due to a lack of nationalism that we do not care about social justice anymore.
It is due to a lack of nationalism that we're becoming more lazy, and more concerned with personal gain.

Nationalism is the remedy to all these problems.

1930? I think you have confused your dates.
Nationalism was around for longer than that. And it aided in the creation of modern Ireland, India and many other countries.

Including pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

Which created horror. The nationalism in Ireland led bloodshed that has not ended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/troubles

Nationalism is just another way to divide people and always leads to conflict.

I am against it for that reason.

Lets examine the cases one by one.
The muslims of India, are a minority in comparison to the Hindoos. Years before the English, Muslims were the reigning power in India, and they had developed a consciousness that has brought with it a shred of pride. They would not accept the rule of the hindus, so they wanted a country for themselves. Gandhi was initially opposed to it, but even he gave way, for he wanted to sway over Jinnah by making the president of India a Muslim person, but when he was told that the Hindus would not stand for it, he eventually agreed. And to be honest, the transition was hard, but it was necessary.
The British have already told Gandhi, that if they were to leave, the country and its religious minorities would fall into disarray. Gandhi said that it would be the problem of the people of India, not the problem of the English.
Independence came at a price, as it did for us, aswell. We have lost thousands of our people when fighting our war for independence.

And same for the Irish. They have a right to detest the English presence on their Island, and for that purpose, they have chosen to fight.
The spirit of nationalism is the spirit of sacrifice. Its not for the faint hearted, its not for cowards, not for those who live in fear of death most of their lives. Its not for those who are too comfortable sitting on their asses.
The spirit of slavery on the other hand...
Avoid conflict, avoid deaths, submit, and you'll be fine.

[paintpooper]

Wasn't it the 1930s the last time nationalism was on the rise?
How did that turn out again?

It was horrible because the communists couldn't stand the nationalist being so strong so they had to bribe the whole world to fight against nationalism.

[TAW]

If you do not pride yourself, why would you even strive to protect your nation?
Without pride, a nation will gladly sell itself out, it will be nothing more than a nation corrupt, and untrustworthy. A proud nation, on the other hand, you trust to be honest, you can trust to face hardships.

A nation without pride will be nothing more than prey to nations with pride, my friend. You can only make world worse by claiming that the nations ought not to be proud of themselves.
And surely, in todays world, where nationalism is being actively attacked by governments, being a nationalist amounts to nothing more than facing more hardships, and perhaps even going against your own government.

It's not pride in yourself because of accomplishments that you've made, it's finding pride in something that's not an accomplishment at all. Being born in a country is not an accomplishment and shouldn't be treated as such. I strive to perfect the world, not just my nation, because I believe in equality and a sense of a "greater good" not because I'm convinced that I'm somehow better than everyone else because my parents had sex in America.

There's nothing beneficial at looking at your flag and the nation military and saying that you're proud to be apart of a disgusting imperialistic regime. I don't find pride in being an America and I generally find people to be stupid and useless, but together we can all strive for a better world, not just as a singular nation but as the human race.

Right now, I'm not proud to be an American because I have no power in my country. My vote is meaningless and the corporations have so far infected the political process that the rights of the people take a back seat to corporate interests. Besides that, we bloat our military budget so that we can remain a world super-power while giving our children a severely deficient education, poor health care, minimal jobs, and lack-luster benefits to assist the needy.

The nationalists of America play right into the hand of the government so, there's absolutely no reason to affiliate myself with them as they've allowed themselves to be deluded and ignore the atrocities committed by my country. This isn't something new of nationalists though, nationalists are always the first one to justify the atrocities of a shoddy government because they're more susceptible to upholding statism.

[paintpooper]

If you do not pride yourself, why would you even strive to protect your nation?
Without pride, a nation will gladly sell itself out, it will be nothing more than a nation corrupt, and untrustworthy. A proud nation, on the other hand, you trust to be honest, you can trust to face hardships.

A nation without pride will be nothing more than prey to nations with pride, my friend. You can only make world worse by claiming that the nations ought not to be proud of themselves.
And surely, in todays world, where nationalism is being actively attacked by governments, being a nationalist amounts to nothing more than facing more hardships, and perhaps even going against your own government.

It's not pride in yourself because of accomplishments that you've made, it's finding pride in something that's not an accomplishment at all. Being born in a country is not an accomplishment and shouldn't be treated as such. I strive to perfect the world, not just my nation, because I believe in equality and a sense of a "greater good" not because I'm convinced that I'm somehow better than everyone else because my parents had sex in America.

There's nothing beneficial at looking at your flag and the nation military and saying that you're proud to be apart of a disgusting imperialistic regime. I don't find pride in being an America and I generally find people to be stupid and useless, but together we can all strive for a better world, not just as a singular nation but as the human race.

Right now, I'm not proud to be an American because I have no power in my country. My vote is meaningless and the corporations have so far infected the political process that the rights of the people take a back seat to corporate interests. Besides that, we bloat our military budget so that we can remain a world super-power while giving our children a severely deficient education, poor health care, minimal jobs, and lack-luster benefits to assist the needy.

The nationalists of America play right into the hand of the government so, there's absolutely no reason to affiliate myself with them as they've allowed themselves to be deluded and ignore the atrocities committed by my country. This isn't something new of nationalists though, nationalists are always the first one to justify the atrocities of a shoddy government because they're more susceptible to upholding statism.

You should not be proud of what America is today, you should strive to change it!

Nationalism would stop over seas troops, and intervention of foreign affairs, it would also nationalize all large corporations for the benefit of the people. Have you never read the points of the NSDAP?

It is what you want. It is the solution to the problem.
Not saying everything on this list works for USA, as it is a different time and different place.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

[TAW]

Implying the corporations have the best interests of the people at heart.
America can't become an isolationist state, it has too much at stake. All it can do is pander to the crowd of nationalists and convince them that what we're doing overseas is just. Isolationism might be fine in certain instances of war, but in repairing a country, it doesn't help. I don't think you saw my statement from before when I claimed that nationalism might seem fine in certain regards as far as de-internationalizing corporation, but it's the cultural aspect of nationalism which is far more damaging than anything else. Nationalism tends to breed xenophobia and racism as we lay our problems on having "open borders" and "connections to the world". As though all our problems can be solved by just shutting ourselves away.

[kılıç_mehmet]

It's not pride in yourself because of accomplishments that you've made, it's finding pride in something that's not an accomplishment at all. Being born in a country is not an accomplishment and shouldn't be treated as such. I strive to perfect the world, not just my nation, because I believe in equality and a sense of a "greater good" not because I'm convinced that I'm somehow better than everyone else because my parents had sex in America.

You are not looking at this from national perspective.
As such, you still use wrong terminologies when describing things.
Even if I were born in the US as a Turk, I'd still be a Turkish nationalist. It is in my blood, they are my people, they define me, I was born into them, and I have to do my best to not let the accomplishments of the past be in vain.
You strive for the perfect world you say.
There is no perfect world, as to strive for it. Let me ask you this, how many of my people have died in Iraq in the last year? Can you answer me?
But you sure do know how to strive for equality for gays in America. That's how far your "greater good" is able to reach, my friend.
The world does not need good intentions, it needs actions, your good intentions do not change the fact that you cannot be of more use to my people than I can be.

I am one with my nation, I weep whenever they weep, I laugh whenever they laugh. My connection is one that isn't easily severed, I am connected by blood, by language, by culture. Even if I were to be geographically severed from them, I'd still feel that connection. You cannot comprehend these.

There's nothing beneficial at looking at your flag and the nation military and saying that you're proud to be apart of a disgusting imperialistic regime. I don't find pride in being an America and I generally find people to be stupid and useless, but together we can all strive for a better world, not just as a singular nation but as the human race.

If you don't, don't. Its not my concern. But why do you want me to do the same?
Yes indeed we can strive for a better world. But I think that this better world can be archived by the individual progress of nations, not by some self-absorbed domineering global regime.

Right now, I'm not proud to be an American because I have no power in my country. My vote is meaningless and the corporations have so far infected the political process that the rights of the people take a back seat to corporate interests. Besides that, we bloat our military budget so that we can remain a world super-power while giving our children a severely deficient education, poor health care, minimal jobs, and lack-luster benefits to assist the needy.

Well, without pride, how do you expect to be in a position of power?
Without pride, why do you even care? Without pride, without an ideal of an America, why would you even strive for a better country?
You simply weep like a woman for which you could not defend like a man.

The nationalists of America play right into the hand of the government so, there's absolutely no reason to affiliate myself with them as they've allowed themselves to be deluded and ignore the atrocities committed by my country. This isn't something new of nationalists though, nationalists are always the first one to justify the atrocities of a shoddy government because they're more susceptible to upholding statism.

Where are these nationalists? I knew only one nationalist in America, someone whom I consider to be worthy of knowing, and he was assasinated. He knew and spoke the truth, and he spoke of all the ills that were to befall your country. You should look into him.

Implying the corporations have the best interests of the people at heart.

Obviously they don't. But neither do you.

America can't become an isolationist state, it has too much at stake.

Well, if that be the case, why would you willingly discard your stakes?

All it can do is pander to the crowd of nationalists and convince them that what we're doing overseas is just.

Do you really think that the nationalists of your country are the ones who approve of your overseas adventures?

Isolationism might be fine in certain instances of war, but in repairing a country, it doesn't help. I don't think you saw my statement from before when I claimed that nationalism might seem fine in certain regards as far as de-internationalizing corporation, but it's the cultural aspect of nationalism which is far more damaging than anything else.

No one is advocating isolationism. However we would like everything to be on a basis of mutual respect rather than parasitic disrespect.

Nationalism tends to breed xenophobia and racism as we lay our problems on having "open borders" and "connections to the world".

And open borders do breed problems. They are the reason for the economic dominance of the international corporations.
Capitalism wants nothing more than a world of no borders whatsoever. It does not wish to recognize those borders for the sake of free flow of capital.

As though all our problems can be solved by just shutting ourselves away.

You still do not wish to comprehend what I'm saying I guess. No one is telling anyone to shut themselves away. A Nation that wished to become great must expand in one way or the other. However, a nation must also resist the expansion of others if she wishes to survive.

[TAW]

I don't even know if I want to continue this dialogue with you after reading some of the disingenuous remarks you made. You sit there and tell me I'm completely wrong about my convictions of wanting a better world for the people while knowing literally nothing of my political stances. You're trying in vain to tear apart what I stand for while having nothing to tear apart. It's a shameful display and I think you're just reacting poorly to the remarks I made against nationalism. I could be wrong but I'd rather this be a formal discussion rather than playing petty games of saying that I don't have the people's best interests at heart.

I'm telling you things that I've noted as being an American citizen and dealing with plenty of "nationalists" in the red state of Arizona. I'm not having at you, I'm having at the experience I've had with nationalists.

[paintpooper]

I don't even know if I want to continue this dialogue with you after reading some of the disingenuous remarks you made. You sit there and tell me I'm completely wrong about my convictions of wanting a better world for the people while knowing literally nothing of my political stances. You're trying in vain to tear apart what I stand for while having nothing to tear apart. It's a shameful display and I think you're just reacting poorly to the remarks I made against nationalism. I could be wrong but I'd rather this be a formal discussion rather than playing petty games of saying that I don't have the people's best interests at heart.

I'm telling you things that I've noted as being an American citizen and dealing with plenty of "nationalists" in the red state of Arizona. I'm not having at you, I'm having at the experience I've had with nationalists.

Who are these "nationalists" in AZ what is their stance on war, economics, immigration?

Where is their manifesto? I doubt they are true nationalists.

[TAW]

I don't even know if I want to continue this dialogue with you after reading some of the disingenuous remarks you made. You sit there and tell me I'm completely wrong about my convictions of wanting a better world for the people while knowing literally nothing of my political stances. You're trying in vain to tear apart what I stand for while having nothing to tear apart. It's a shameful display and I think you're just reacting poorly to the remarks I made against nationalism. I could be wrong but I'd rather this be a formal discussion rather than playing petty games of saying that I don't have the people's best interests at heart.

I'm telling you things that I've noted as being an American citizen and dealing with plenty of "nationalists" in the red state of Arizona. I'm not having at you, I'm having at the experience I've had with nationalists.

Who are these "nationalists" in AZ what is their stance on war, economics, immigration?

Where is their manifesto? I doubt they are true nationalists.

Do you want a list or individuals? Is it so incredible that people align themselves as nationalists in the border state with Mexico? Is that really the most inconceivable thing ever to you? If you want their stances, you should seek them out as it's ridiculous for me to sit here and try to act like an agent of their word. What I've expressed is the experience that I have had with the nationalists in this state.

Also, the insinuation that they're not "true nationalists" is such a cop out. It's easy to sit there and say, "Oh, well he may claim to have the same views as me but he's not a 'true X' because I don't like what he's saying." We see Christians do this exact same thing to other denominations of Christianity on a daily basis, come on guys, get your shit together.

[kılıç_mehmet]

I don't even know if I want to continue this dialogue with you after reading some of the disingenuous remarks you made.

Which are?

You sit there and tell me I'm completely wrong about my convictions of wanting a better world for the people while knowing literally nothing of my political stances.

I also want a better world for the people. Though really I don't think I'll be surprised by your political stance.
Please elaborate if you wish to share it, then we can continue the discussion from there.

You're trying in vain to tear apart what I stand for while having nothing to tear apart.

I am not trying to tear anything apart as I also know that you have nothing to tear apart.

It's a shameful display and I think you're just reacting poorly to the remarks I made against nationalism.

I'm reacting poorly? I think I reacted at least respectfully by replying to every single of your remarks one by one, while you simply disregarded my answers by calling them "poor". I don't think that we're discussing anything on the same level of respect, as it seems.

. I could be wrong but I'd rather this be a formal discussion rather than playing petty games of saying that I don't have the people's best interests at heart.

I have merely stated that everyone has their own people's best interests in heart.
And I stand by my words that this holds true today.

I'm telling you things that I've noted as being an American citizen and dealing with plenty of "nationalists" in the red state of Arizona.

By nationalist, I guess you're referring to the generic white nationalist types, or the more civic American nationalist type?

I'm not having at you, I'm having at the experience I've had with nationalists.

So we're not going to base this discussion on ideology, but rather on your personal experience with nationalists. I cannot really say anything before really knowing their reasoning first, so maybe you ought to elaborate on your "personal experience" a bit more.

Is it so incredible that people align themselves as nationalists in the border state with Mexico?

What exactly is your point?

If you want their stances, you should seek them out as it's ridiculous for me to sit here and try to act like an agent of their word.

Well, it was you who gave them as an example. Since this is a discussion based on ideology, and not personal experiences, I guess the best you can do is to provide us with an outline of their ideology and their manifesto and the exact points with which you disagree.

Also, the insinuation that they're not "true nationalists" is such a cop out.

Well, a nationalist is usually someone with a solid ideology, and true to his views in both thought and action.

"Oh, well he may claim to have the same views as me but he's not a 'true X' because I don't like what he's saying."

Obviously no, but I cannot really classify someone as a nationalist if they support a party that attends yearly socialist international meetings now can I? Similarly, I cannot classify someone as a nationalist if they support ideals that are in complete opposite to the basic tenets that are shared by most nationalist ideologies on earth.

There is so much ideological garbage on earth that people don't seem to know what is what most of the time.