Question for agnostics and atheists

[Moros Synackaon]

(9th December 2009 12:21)tackattack Wrote:  true, nor am I asking anyone to accept my claims.. just express their own claims.

Baseless claims are a yet another name for opinion. You certainly have a right to an opinion, but your opinion and credibility actually count less against qualified researchers or experts in relevant area, unless you are an expert in said area yourself. Even then, your opinion still counts for almost nothing, especially among "hard" scientists (Hard as in the hard sciences, e.g. Physics, Engineering, etc).

You made an evasion. Bad Christian, no undead cracker!

[tackattack]

(9th December 2009 19:04)Synackaon Wrote:  

(9th December 2009 12:21)tackattack Wrote:  true, nor am I asking anyone to accept my claims.. just express their own claims.

Baseless claims are a yet another name for opinion. You certainly have a right to an opinion, but your opinion and credibility actually count less against qualified researchers or experts in relevant area, unless you are an expert in said area yourself. Even then, your opinion still counts for almost nothing, especially among "hard" scientists (Hard as in the hard sciences, e.g. Physics, Engineering, etc).

You made an evasion. Bad Christian, no undead cracker!

No evasion. My claims are irrelevant as is my credibility. I simply am asking some questions so I can internalize some issues I'm working with. The only reason I even stated my opinions is because no one would answer my questions without me first stating mine, with another question, or flat out refused.

[rjh4]

(3rd December 2009 19:54)Purple Rabbit Wrote:  Nope, that is not at all what the second law states. Please be sure not to parrot something you do not understand.
What decreases according to the second law is entropy.

Reading all this stuff about thermodynamics brings back memories....

I happened to read this and I also happened to still have my "Introduction to Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics" book by Smith and Van Ness sitting on my shelf. On page 153 it says:

"Thus, the second law provides us with a general principle of great utility: All processes proceed in a direction such that the total entropy change is positive, approaching zero as a limit, as the process approaches reversibility. This conclusion can be stated mathematically by the equation

delta S total is greater than or equal to 0" (I wrote the equation out obviously)

Since delta S = S final - S initial and delta S is always positive or 0, S must always either increase or stay the same in a process. It never decreases for the total system.

So it seems you are incorrect in your last statement quoted above or you misspoke or...

[theVOID]

(10th December 2009 20:59)rjh4 Wrote:  

(3rd December 2009 19:54)Purple Rabbit Wrote:  Nope, that is not at all what the second law states. Please be sure not to parrot something you do not understand.
What decreases according to the second law is entropy.

Reading all this stuff about thermodynamics brings back memories....

I happened to read this and I also happened to still have my "Introduction to Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics" book by Smith and Van Ness sitting on my shelf. On page 153 it says:

"Thus, the second law provides us with a general principle of great utility: All processes proceed in a direction such that the total entropy change is positive, approaching zero as a limit, as the process approaches reversibility. This conclusion can be stated mathematically by the equation

delta S total is greater than or equal to 0" (I wrote the equation out obviously)

Since delta S = S final - S initial and delta S is always positive or 0, S must always either increase or stay the same in a process. It never decreases for the total system.

So it seems you are incorrect in your last statement quoted above or you misspoke or...

Could be a typo, you're absolutely correct all the same rjh4, entropy can never decrease in a closed or isolated system, only in an open system.

[rjh4]

(10th December 2009 21:17)theVOID Wrote:  Could be a typo...

Could be...but it does not seem like it since it was Tackattack that said that entropy increased and useable energy decreased and I was quoting Purple Rabbit's response.

[theVOID]

(10th December 2009 21:40)rjh4 Wrote:  

(10th December 2009 21:17)theVOID Wrote:  Could be a typo...

Could be...but it does not seem like it since it was Tackattack that said that entropy increased and useable energy decreased and I was quoting Purple Rabbit's response.

True Sounds like arguing for arguments sake

[tackattack]

I believe entropy can't decrease because time is uni directional? but we've determined that the known universe is not an isolated system and doesn't apply I believe.

[theVOID]

(10th December 2009 22:05)tackattack Wrote:  I believe entropy can't decrease because time is uni directional? but we've determined that the known universe is not an isolated system and doesn't apply I believe.

The flow of time it's self is not entirely straight, it can be warped, twisted and spun like space it's self, so while at times it is entirely possible for time to go backwards or skew, it is for all practical purposes fine to think of it as being straight.

Entropy still either increases or stays constant over time in a closed system.

[tackattack]

After I get some sleep we'll talk quantum physics, but for now definitely straight is ok with me. I'll parrot and you correct

[theVOID]

(11th December 2009 02:15)tackattack Wrote:  After I get some sleep we'll talk quantum physics, but for now definitely straight is ok with me. I'll parrot and you correct

Sounds fun.