How to Tell You've Been Indoctrinated

[Whateverist]

I think something that may be missing here is the difference between the learning done by a child in the context of a family and the learning by an autonomous adult. Because of the context, developmental psychology of children, and the incentives for both parent and child, much of the early learning of a child will fit the dictionary definition of indoctrination. And this definition doesn't communicate well that indoctrination is often viewed in a bad light, as something unhealthy. If we put the two together, we end up passing a blanket judgement that this early learning is unhealthy, and I think that's absurd.

As to my own view, I stopped believing in the virtues of my Christian upbringing at an age which I don't remember what happened. I do think that a factor in my abandoning Christianity is that my religious education was neglected. My sisters were confirmed, and once that had been accomplished, my mother no longer bothered to educate me in the ways of Christianity. I think it's natural to think that likely influenced my desire to continue learning and remain in the faith, but I just don't know. I simply don't remember. Though I was a willful child (am?), so it's possible that my thinking became autonomous in character earlier than that of most.

My own bias is that while indoctrination is acceptable to some degree for children, it is always regrettable. One must decide where to draw a line. I wouldn't try to explain to a young child that there is a spectrum of behavior from violently asocial to selfless, over-socialization and lay out the costs and benefits of each approach. I would coerce to some degree but I wouldn't want to do so beyond what I felt necessary.

[Clueless Morgan]

Using Popeyespappy's definition of "indoctrination", the answer to the original question follows something like this. Someone realizes they have been indoctrinated into a particular belief when they realize that their learning about it was carefully managed to present only one view as acceptable. When they discover that others see the same things in a variety of ways which can be defended as well as the one they've had cultivated in themselves then they know they have been indoctrinated.

I think this is a reasonable explanation, but I wonder about, say, a fundamentalist theist who regularly interacts with people who hold very different views than they do, and knows that these conflicting views can be rationalized, but they [the fundamentalist] deny credibility to their [the other people's] arguments?

For example: Creationists. Let's take Ken Ham as an example since he is a theist who is a biblical creationist and is fully aware that there are conflicting arguments against his position. In his case he knows the arguments against creationism so he is aware that there is at least one position that conflicts with him, let alone a variety, but since he fails to realize that his information was presented to him so as to make creationism the only viable explanation, he would be an example of one who has not realized he has been indoctrinated. Am I understanding you correctly?

There may be instances of indoctrination where one doesn't mind. One might reason that having been brought up with certain values that those values justify the one sided attempt to instill them. One might even decide to pass them along in the same way. I'm not sure this falls so far outside the norm as to be universally damnable.

I don't particularly mind my D.A.R.E. indoctrination though I'm not sure exactly where what I have been taught to think ends and where my own rationalization begins. (I don't recall ever thinking doing drugs was a good idea, but then again I don't know that I even knew what drugs were until I was taught to "just say no.")

It seems as though you are suggesting that in order for you to realize that you have been the victim of indoctrination the following must all have taken place:

• Seeing that others hold conflicting or contradictory opinions or beliefs
  
• Seeing that others can defend their beliefs just as completely as you can defend yours
  
• Seeing that you have only been presented a one-sided picture of the beliefs you hold.

And in order for you to take action in throwing off your indoctrination you have to be bothered or upset to some degree that you have gotten a one-sided picture of the beliefs you were taught. In other words, like me, if you aren't particularly bothered that you have been indoctrinated after you realize you have been, than there would be no impetus to change.

That's interesting.

My own bias is that while indoctrination is acceptable to some degree for children, it is always regrettable. One must decide where to draw a line. I wouldn't try to explain to a young child that there is a spectrum of behavior from violently asocial to selfless, over-socialization and lay out the costs and benefits of each approach. I would coerce to some degree but I wouldn't want to do so beyond what I felt necessary.

Doesn't that have to do with the manner in which children must learn things, though? Very young children aren't capable of understanding complex situations so while a child is very young a parent would use very black and white examples to teach that child. But as the child grow ups and into a brain chemistry that can better understand complex situations, grey areas are introduced, conflicting viewpoints are introduced, the child is taught to weigh options, etc.

While it may be true that the methods used to teach very young children could be classified as indoctrination, such teaching methods are not often maintained into adolescence or adulthood, except in certain areas such as religion, maybe politics, maybe sports teams.

[Whateverist]

Yep, that's what I think. I've always thought that inherited religion is fiercely defended out of loyalty to the family and community one comes from. The phrase "faith of our fathers" seems to convey this loyalty. Indoctrination toward an adult is insulting but we don't uniformly complain about every sort of indoctrination we've received. I think some of us, at some point, become skeptical toward any and all indoctrination and try to reclaim ownership of our beliefs and biases. I'm not sure how far it is possible to do this. The "me" from which you would evaluate your many influences at some point overlaps those influences. It is the classic problem of rebuilding a ship at sea. We have all already launched and we can only tear ourselves down so far without losing sea worthiness.