Theists: What makes your claims right and the claims of other theists wrong?

[Ryantology]

Honest question. Many of you justify your belief in the same way, and yet the results you show are vastly different and directly conflict in fundamental ways.

You have no physical evidence of your claims and you eventually resort to the supernatural, regardless of what religion you call your own, because the mailed fist of science is not designed to penetrate a world that is in no way discernible from imaginary. Yet, from that shared source, you all, even within the same belief system, pull out radically different results.

So, what's the deal?

1. What makes your claims superior to those which aren't yours?
   
2. Can you empirically prove the superiority of your beliefs to anyone who doesn't share them?
   
3. If the answer to the last question is no, why should anybody share your beliefs?
   
4. Do you understand that theological arguments and apologetics only work on those who already believe what you do?
   
5. When you proselytize to us, do you ever stop to consider that atheists aren't just rejecting your specific dogma?

[Violet]

1: I died.

2: If you touched me, you would be open to the accusation of molestation. I wouldn't want you to... go through that.

3: NA

4: If it didn't 'work' on the uninitiated, then what is up with those new converts, and how does religion spread?

5: Yes. But then, I am not rejecting just their absence of dogma either. I don't usually talk to atheists. I knew a doormouse once what held debates with atheists, including the cutlery and tablecloth. He was very impressive, a perfect debate win-record, as far as I had opportunity to observe.

I'd think he drowned in the tea, but... I'm not really sure. He was very small.

[Rayaan]

What makes your claims superior to those which aren't yours?

A variety of things, the top 3 being the strong emphasis on the oneness of God in Islam, the inimitable beauty of the Quran, and the perpetual increase of an unexplainable inner peace and a change of perspective that I have experienced as a result of remembering and reflecting on the words of the Quran. Fourthly, also the life and the extraordinary character of the Prophet Muhammad which many people are ignorant of today.

Can you empirically prove the superiority of your beliefs to anyone who doesn't share them?

No, not empirically ... and I would say that demanding an empirical proof is insulting to ourselves especially when the truth is already something ingrained in us.

Islam teaches that God is closer to you than your own jugular veins.

If the answer to the last question is no, why should anybody share your beliefs?

They don't have to and I can't force them to share my beliefs, but I guess it's just good for them if they do so. But, ultimately, each to their own.

Do you understand that theological arguments and apologetics only work on those who already believe what you do?

Yeah, but my reason for getting into theological arguments is primarily for the sake of my own benefit and my learning. What other people think or gain from me is secondary.

I think it's also interesting when philosophy, science, psychology, and other fields become entangled with religious discussions.

When you proselytize to us, do you ever stop to consider that atheists aren't just rejecting your specific dogma?

Yes, for that is quite obvious to me.

[tor]

What makes your claims superior to those which aren't yours?

A variety of things, the top 3 being the strong emphasis on the oneness of God in Islam, the inimitable beauty of the Quran, and the perpetual increase of an unexplainable inner peace and a change of perspective that I have experienced as a result of remembering and reflecting on the words of the Quran. Fourthly, also the life and the extraordinary character of the Prophet Muhammad which many people are ignorant of today.

Can you empirically prove the superiority of your beliefs to anyone who doesn't share them?

No, not empirically ... and I would say that demanding an empirical proof is insulting to ourselves especially when the truth is already something ingrained in us.

Islam teaches that God is closer to you than your own jugular veins.

If the answer to the last question is no, why should anybody share your beliefs?

They don't have to and I can't force them to share my beliefs, but I guess it's just good for them if they do so. But, ultimately, each to their own.

Do you understand that theological arguments and apologetics only work on those who already believe what you do?

Yeah, but my reason for getting into theological arguments is primarily for the sake of my own benefit and my learning. What other people think or gain from me is secondary.

I think it's also interesting when philosophy, science, psychology, and other fields become entangled with religious discussions.

When you proselytize to us, do you ever stop to consider that atheists aren't just rejecting your specific dogma?

Yes, for that is quite obvious to me.

Will christians go to hell?

[heathendegenerate]

I felt the same awakening in christian scripture, allah's homeboy. Knowing in your heart, what a load of crap. You mindless muslims don't even believe in miracles.. people miss the point on your prophet eh? When he wasn't convincing people to fuck children, he must have been a real saint. Oh, that's right.. he didn't exist.. but, too bad, because the quran still ruins the lives of many, many women.. and children, too, apparently. Great stuff. Praise him.. do you see what your religion does in the countries where it's either be a muslim or die? Do you see anything? People are afraid of muslims.. even on internet forums.. oh noes, they'll blow me up. What a retarded religion.. death is the answer for all of allah's enemies. They're against the truth! Free the world of intellectual slavery..lol BOOYA SUCK IT MUSLIMS

[Foxaèr]

---

What makes your claims superior to those which aren't yours?

A variety of things, the top 3 being the strong emphasis on the oneness of God in Islam, the inimitable beauty of the Quran, and the perpetual increase of an unexplainable inner peace and a change of perspective that I have experienced as a result of remembering and reflecting on the words of the Quran. Fourthly, also the life and the extraordinary character of the Prophet Muhammad which many people are ignorant of today.

Can you empirically prove the superiority of your beliefs to anyone who doesn't share them?

No, not empirically ... and I would say that demanding an empirical proof is insulting to ourselves especially when the truth is already something ingrained in us.

Islam teaches that God is closer to you than your own jugular veins.

If the answer to the last question is no, why should anybody share your beliefs?

They don't have to and I can't force them to share my beliefs, but I guess it's just good for them if they do so. But, ultimately, each to their own.

Do you understand that theological arguments and apologetics only work on those who already believe what you do?

Yeah, but my reason for getting into theological arguments is primarily for the sake of my own benefit and my learning. What other people think or gain from me is secondary.

I think it's also interesting when philosophy, science, psychology, and other fields become entangled with religious discussions.

When you proselytize to us, do you ever stop to consider that atheists aren't just rejecting your specific dogma?

Yes, for that is quite obvious to me.

---

[Vicki Q]

This is good. A triangular discussion.

1. What makes your claims superior to those which aren't yours?
   
2. Can you empirically prove the superiority of your beliefs to anyone who doesn't share them?
   
3. If the answer to the last question is no, why should anybody share your beliefs?
   
4. Do you understand that theological arguments and apologetics only work on those who already believe what you do?
   
5. When you proselytize to us, do you ever stop to consider that atheists aren't just rejecting your specific dogma?

Interesting choice of word. Would you describe your beliefs as 'superior'?

I think we're all doing the same sort of thing. We're trying to form a worldview that best fits the data. When we meet someone who doesn't share the worldview, we share data and processes to run through why we differ in our worldviews.

So from time to time I'll run some ideas past someone who disagrees with me, to check my thinking, and to invite them to check theirs.

At least that's the theory. In practice, people have all sorts of reasons for all sorts of beliefs that have little to do with reason. Jaffa cakes tend to work better than apologetics. I try to keep both in.

A variety of things, the top 3 being the strong emphasis on the oneness of God in Islam, the inimitable beauty of the Quran, and the perpetual increase of an unexplainable inner peace and a change of perspective that I have experienced as a result of remembering and reflecting on the words of the Quran. Fourthly, also the life and the extraordinary character of the Prophet Muhammad which many people are ignorant of today.

No, not empirically ... and I would say that demanding an empirical proof is insulting to ourselves especially when the truth is already something ingrained in us.

This is interesting, because I've known a number of Muslims (the online ones, anyway) who think that the arguments are there for Islam. For example, the impossibility of producing one sura like that of the Quran. Things they believe are scientific knowledge in the Quran that weren't known at the time. However ISTM there is more 'suck it and see' from Muslims, whereas ISTM more common for Xians to get excited about the arguments. (Although the majority would be 'suck it and see' to at least some degree).

To both of the other sides of the 'triangle'- for me, it would be the historical argument. Getting from C1 Judaism to emerging C1 Judeo-Christianity requires an historical explanation; atheism's had hundreds of years to provide this, and we're still waiting for a plausible alternative to the rather simple explanation “What they saw is what happened”.

I'm off to buy a protractor to work out some of the angles on this triangular discussion.

[Minimalist]

A variety of things, the top 3 being the strong emphasis on the oneness of God in Islam, the inimitable beauty of the Quran, and the perpetual increase of an unexplainable inner peace and a change of perspective that I have experienced as a result of remembering and reflecting on the words of the Quran. Fourthly, also the life and the extraordinary character of the Prophet Muhammad which many people are ignorant of today.

So then, your answer to the original question is "no."

[Whateverist]

I think we're all doing the same sort of thing. We're trying to form a worldview that best fits the data. When we meet someone who doesn't share the worldview, we share data and processes to run through why we differ in our worldviews.

So from time to time I'll run some ideas past someone who disagrees with me, to check my thinking, and to invite them to check theirs.

At least that's the theory. In practice, people have all sorts of reasons for all sorts of beliefs that have little to do with reason. Jaffa cakes tend to work better than apologetics. I try to keep both in.

Nothing to disagree with here so far. In fact I really like the part I bolded and I like your attitude.

Getting from C1 Judaism to emerging C1 Judeo-Christianity requires an historical explanation; atheism's had hundreds of years to provide this, and we're still waiting for a plausible alternative to the rather simple explanation “What they saw is what happened”.

Have you tried "what they saw is what they truly but mistakingly thought they saw"? There need be no deliberate attempt to deceive for people to misinterpret what they see. Furthermore, the actual number who would have seen anything extraordinary would be miniscule in comparison to the number swept up in believing it.

I never got the memo assigning the explanation for the transition from Judaism to Christianity to atheists. I would have declined at any rate. You are of course entirely free to go on believing as you will. It is not my place to dissuade you from xtian belief.

[Vicki Q]

Nothing to disagree with here so far. In fact I really like the part I bolded and I like your attitude.

I spent a large part of a particularly dull meeting today preparing cutting retorts to the expected standard atheist responses. I now feel positively ashamed of myself.

Mind you, it did help to pass the time.

I never got the memo assigning the explanation for the transition from Judaism to Christianity to atheists. I would have declined at any rate.

That was me, muddling up the “Since Hume people have been trying to explain the resurrection” point with, “How do we explain the rise of early Xianity with the modified Jewish beliefs?” point.

Have you tried "what they saw is what they truly but mistakingly thought they saw"? There need be no deliberate attempt to deceive for people to misinterpret what they see. Furthermore, the actual number who would have seen anything extraordinary would be miniscule in comparison to the number swept up in believing it.

Of the many explanations, it's one of the least implausible. Anyone who thinks the disciples didn't believe they saw something huge is kidding themselves- these guys really believed they saw something life changing. That's why they went from scare to share.*

The obvious question being- what did they see?

The thing is, in C1 Judaism there was masses of language and background around seeing visions. All sorts of non-physical appearances occur in Jewish writings. That's clearly the route a “mistakenly thought” would have followed.

But that's resolutely not what the disciples claimed happened. Something came which broke bread, could be poked and ate fish. Anastasis- the emphatically physical. Not an ethereal vision. A single resurrection before the general one- completely against every belief and expectation a Jew living in C1 would possess.

If a shared vision couldn't reasonably have given rise to belief in a physical resurrection, what could?

And don't get me started on redefinition of Jewish ideas of God's Kingdom- how simple physical 'appearance' couldn't by itself have generated the change in core beliefs about Judaism. And about what must have gone on before the Passion.

Actually, come to think of it, do get me started.




What's the sig picture of?




*I did not do that. No. Wasn't me. I would never do that.