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February 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm (This post was last modified: February 25, 2014 at 11:50 pm by jdrubnitz.)
Hey there, all. So, the following is an inconsistency I came to when contemplating the idea of the New Heaven and Earth. It's sort of an extension of the problem of evil. Sympathizing with the vague and broad terms of a "loving" and "good" God, it's really more the "problem of the free will defense argument in the context of Christian Doctrine":
NHNE = New Heaven, New Earth
1. The NHNE doctrine claims there will be no evil or possibility of evil present once the the devil is destroyed, and eternal judgment takes place
2. If there can be no evil present, yet humans still are able to somehow freely choose, than God’s permission of evil in the first place, before the new heaven and earth, was unnecessary. a. Unnecessary means God did not need to permit evil in order for his goodness and love to thrive, for supposedly his goodness and love can thrive after the NH and NE, even without sin being able to take place
3. If there can be evil present, and humans are able to freely choose it, Jesus’ life and atoning sacrifice had no significance in the first place a. Significance denotes some eternal bearing on the reality and existence of evil and sin, particularly their defeat by the power of Jesus Christ (His death and Resurrection)
b. “No significance” denotes that Jesus’ actions merely impacted culture and society in a way that may have inspired some sort of change in behavior, just as any man could and has done.
4. If, somehow, it is possible that God remains good and loving by abruptly disallowing the presence of evil after this age, than He is not immutable.
*Notes. This is a drafted presentation of the argument. There are still many broad terms I'd like to define, and I plan to elaborate on each step. The following are some premises for the reader, as well:
This argument refutes the consistency of a certain Christian Theology if
1. The believer claims God is omnipotent (all-powerful) and Immutable (Unchanging)
a. Immutable denotes that God is a being who, while he is able to commit different actions, every action steps within the bounds of an unchanging character (one of love, mercy, and goodness) and will.
1. Loving, good, merciful, and will are in themselves broad terms, but it seems that most believers have for themselves some idea or conception of what they mean. Scripture points out the details. For this argument, it is unnecessary to define these terms.
2. The believer claims that God gave human creatures free will in order that he may be fully loving and/or good
3. The believer claims that Jesus Christ’s life and atoning sacrifice destroyed the works of the devil (1 John 3:8), and made it possible that all believers may live eternally in the New Heaven and Earth without evil, pain, and suffering (Revelation 21:14).
4. The believer claims there is some afterlife, which for the believer entails an absence evil or the possibility of evil
(February 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm)jdrubnitz Wrote: Hey there, all. So, the following is an inconsistency I came to when contemplating the idea of the New Heaven and Earth. It's sort of an extension of the problem of evil. Sympathizing with the vague and broad terms of a "loving" and "good" God, it's really more the "problem of the free will defense argument in the context of Christian Doctrine":
NHNE = New Heaven, New Earth
1. The NHNE doctrine claims there will be no evil or possibility of evil present once the the devil is destroyed, and eternal judgment takes place
2. If there can be no evil present, yet humans still are able to somehow freely choose, than God’s permission of evil in the first place, before the new heaven and earth, was unnecessary.
nothing in the bible says we have free will. It says the opposite. The bible through the words of Christ in parable and the works and words of Paul tells us we are slaves to sin. The only choice we truly have is to seek redemption from sin. This one choice however does not mean we have 'free will' as you have outlined it here. The doctrine of 'free will' is an early church assimilation of a Greek philosophy, and not an actual biblical teaching.
(February 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm)jdrubnitz Wrote: Hey there, all. So, the following is an inconsistency I came to when contemplating the idea of the New Heaven and Earth. It's sort of an extension of the problem of evil. Sympathizing with the vague and broad terms of a "loving" and "good" God, it's really more the "problem of the free will defense argument in the context of Christian Doctrine":
NHNE = New Heaven, New Earth
1. The NHNE doctrine claims there will be no evil or possibility of evil present once the the devil is destroyed, and eternal judgment takes place
2. If there can be no evil present, yet humans still are able to somehow freely choose, than God’s permission of evil in the first place, before the new heaven and earth, was unnecessary. a. Unnecessary means God did not need to permit evil in order for his goodness and love to thrive, for supposedly his goodness and love can thrive after the NH and NE, even without sin being able to take place
3. If there can be evil present, and humans are able to freely choose it, Jesus’ life and atoning sacrifice had no significance in the first place a. Significance denotes some eternal bearing on the reality and existence of evil and sin, particularly their defeat by the power of Jesus Christ (His death and Resurrection)
b. “No significance” denotes that Jesus’ actions merely impacted culture and society in a way that may have inspired some sort of change in behavior, just as any man could and has done.
4. If, somehow, it is possible that God remains good and loving by abruptly disallowing the presence of evil after this age, than He is not immutable.
2. The believer claims that God gave human creatures free will in order that he may be fully loving and/or good.
First, you need to understand the scriptures before you make such claims, most of this seems to come from an unknowing mind about the Bible and the God it describes.
1) Where does it say in scripture there will be no more evil, what do you believe will exist in hell, hint, all the evil man has ever committed will be there to keep the company of those residing there.
2) You seem to be mislead as to the reason evil came into existence. God would agree that evil was unnecessary, man on the other hand just couldn't resist having evil in their lives.
a) God's love and goodness had already existed from eternity, good and love do not need evil to exist, however evil can only be defined from the existence of good.
3) Like I stated earlier, evil will be confined to hell, hell is a prison nothing can escape.
a) Jesus life, death and resurrection has eternal significance for those who accept what He did, for those who reject it, there is no significance, because hell takes no decision on one's part to obtain.
4) How does the absence of evil in the NENH change God, you need to present something that can back that up, the scriptures say God never changes.
2. This is a completely false statement, God's love and goodness existed fully before creation, that's why we were created, because it already existed.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(February 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm)jdrubnitz Wrote: Hey there, all. So, the following is an inconsistency I came to when contemplating the idea of the New Heaven and Earth. It's sort of an extension of the problem of evil. Sympathizing with the vague and broad terms of a "loving" and "good" God, it's really more the "problem of the free will defense argument in the context of Christian Doctrine":
NHNE = New Heaven, New Earth
1. The NHNE doctrine claims there will be no evil or possibility of evil present once the the devil is destroyed, and eternal judgment takes place
2. If there can be no evil present, yet humans still are able to somehow freely choose, than God’s permission of evil in the first place, before the new heaven and earth, was unnecessary. a. Unnecessary means God did not need to permit evil in order for his goodness and love to thrive, for supposedly his goodness and love can thrive after the NH and NE, even without sin being able to take place
3. If there can be evil present, and humans are able to freely choose it, Jesus’ life and atoning sacrifice had no significance in the first place a. Significance denotes some eternal bearing on the reality and existence of evil and sin, particularly their defeat by the power of Jesus Christ (His death and Resurrection)
b. “No significance” denotes that Jesus’ actions merely impacted culture and society in a way that may have inspired some sort of change in behavior, just as any man could and has done.
4. If, somehow, it is possible that God remains good and loving by abruptly disallowing the presence of evil after this age, than He is not immutable.
2. The believer claims that God gave human creatures free will in order that he may be fully loving and/or good.
First, you need to understand the scriptures before you make such claims, most of this seems to come from an unknowing mind about the Bible and the God it describes.
1) Where does it say in scripture there will be no more evil, what do you believe will exist in hell, hint, all the evil man has ever committed will be there to keep the company of those residing there.
2) You seem to be mislead as to the reason evil came into existence. God would agree that evil was unnecessary, man on the other hand just couldn't resist having evil in their lives.
a) God's love and goodness had already existed from eternity, good and love do not need evil to exist, however evil can only be defined from the existence of good.
3) Like I stated earlier, evil will be confined to hell, hell is a prison nothing can escape.
a) Jesus life, death and resurrection has eternal significance for those who accept what He did, for those who reject it, there is no significance, because hell takes no decision on one's part to obtain.
4) How does the absence of evil in the NENH change God, you need to present something that can back that up, the scriptures say God never changes.
2. This is a completely false statement, God's love and goodness existed fully before creation, that's why we were created, because it already existed.
GC
Other than scripture, where else to u get ur info?
Your objection is so poorly formulated that it's not even wrong. Why is your interpretation of NHNE corrrect? How do you define good and evil? In what respect is God immutable? Where is Holy Writ does it explicitly say that God never changes? Is eternal judgement a onetime event or an on-going process? Why do you ignore other means of salvation than atonement? Etc. Etc.
First, you need to understand the scriptures before you make such claims, most of this seems to come from an unknowing mind about the Bible and the God it describes.
1) Where does it say in scripture there will be no more evil, what do you believe will exist in hell, hint, all the evil man has ever committed will be there to keep the company of those residing there.
2) You seem to be mislead as to the reason evil came into existence. God would agree that evil was unnecessary, man on the other hand just couldn't resist having evil in their lives.
a) God's love and goodness had already existed from eternity, good and love do not need evil to exist, however evil can only be defined from the existence of good.
3) Like I stated earlier, evil will be confined to hell, hell is a prison nothing can escape.
a) Jesus life, death and resurrection has eternal significance for those who accept what He did, for those who reject it, there is no significance, because hell takes no decision on one's part to obtain.
4) How does the absence of evil in the NENH change God, you need to present something that can back that up, the scriptures say God never changes.
2. This is a completely false statement, God's love and goodness existed fully before creation, that's why we were created, because it already existed.
GC
Other than scripture, where else to u get ur info?
Where else does on get information about the scripture than scripture itself.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
