Sad christian brainwashing.

[Bittersmart]

And why are we assuming that it's other people brainwashing her?

oh! Why sure, she probably just woke up one morning and said, "Golly Gee Wilikers I'ma gonna pick me out an imaginary friend today!" After selecting several fictional children's books out of the library, she probably picked this one over spongebob -

After reading that I'm sure it suddenly came to her on her own volition to decide that her disease is a gift and she should love a imaginary skyfairy that made her so unattractive to other people because he'll give her gold and jewels in heaven for her suffering..

Really... ?

Come on now, stop that. We both know it's more complicated than that, and reducing what I'm saying to strawmen isn't the way to have a discussion. Like I said, I don't use the term "brainwashing" very often. I wasn't brainwashed when I was a child. I was taught. And then I grew up and taught myself something new. And then I changed my belief system. There was nothing overtly nefarious about it.

[LittleAFish]

She probably likes the idea that when she goes into heaven, she won't have a body to be caged in but a spirit filled with the Lord's goodness.
It would be too hard to accept the facts, that she will live as she is and simply die one day, that she'll never get the chance to be this shining diamond in heaven.
Loads of people want a second chance at life. Sadly, plenty of people choose the 'after-life'.

[Bittersmart]

I don't deny that this may be the case with many religious people, but it's awfully assumptive to think that all Christians are like this. From my own experience, I know people who don't feel the need to defend their religious beliefs.

And why are we assuming that it's other people brainwashing her? Could this not be her own decision? I really don't know enough about it to say with any certainty that she has been purposely brainwashed for the sole purpose of promoting Christianity. It all seems rather cynical. I'm no fan of organized religion by a long shot, but I'm not comfortable saying this woman has been used and manipulated for nefarious reasons. She's gone through a lot in her life, it's not hard to imagine that, like many people, she uses religion for her own personal reasons.

I agree, good points. But, part of the indoctrination "process" for lack of a better word, is to teach a false sense of hope. Hope in humanity is honest and real. Teaching false hope is wrong, and promoting it as a positive is wrong. I grew up in the faith and the endless mantras were astounding, uttered by family members to comfort me during difficult times. I'd like to think they weren't brainwashing me, however. lol But, I don't believe in stripping people of their right to choose religion, if they wish.

That is, essentially, how I feel about it. I prefer the truth over false hope, as well. But, sometimes false hope works for people. It would be wrong to say that it can't be detrimental in many cases, though. I guess I'm saying that I don't fault people for choosing false hope over the truth. It's a human trait.

[*Deidre*]

The sad reality of why Christians do this is to "defend" God against attack. An almighty and all knowing "Creator" needs mortals to defend him/it? And by attack, a common argument that non believers give to Christians is that if God was "perfect" why are there illnesses, etc...why didn't he create a perfect world? (Just an example)

At first blush, it would seem like the people in this girl's life want to give her a different perspective and that could be, but it has more to do with wanting to promote Christianity.

They are nowhere nearer the truth than anyone else. The arrogance it takes to think you and your cult are "better acquainted" with God or "a god" than the rest of us, and if only we joined their cult we would be as enlightened, is remarkable.

Maybe God gave them arrogance as a "gift," too.

If I say that Washington D.C. is the capital city of the United States of America, and then go on to say that everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, would you consider me to be arrogant?

If you were expressing something untrue trying to get those who disagree to agree with you, then yes. Even if your intentions were good.

The road to hell is paved with good in....

Aw, you know the rest. lol

[discipulus]

If I say that Washington D.C. is the capital city of the United States of America, and then go on to say that everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, would you consider me to be arrogant?

If you were expressing something untrue trying to get those who disagree to agree with you, then yes. Even if your intentions were good.

The road to hell is paved with good in....

Aw, you know the rest. lol

No, Deidre. Answer the question.

If I state that Washington D.C. is the capital city of the United States and that all the other cities of the United States do not qualify to be called the capital city of the United States, and I then go on to say that anyone who disagrees with this is wrong, would you consider me to be arrogant for stating the truth?

Yes or no?

If I say that 2+2 is four and that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, would you consider me to be arrogant for stating the truth?

I think you get my point. You are a smart woman.

If a Christian says that this woman's condition is a result of being born into a fallen, sinful, dying world, and that this sin owes its existence to the choice of free creatures, and if this is true, then why would you consider it arrogant for a Christian to state the truth and also state that anyone who disagrees is wrong?

Why would that be arrogant?

[Brakeman]

Come on now, stop that. We both know it's more complicated than that, and reducing what I'm saying to strawmen isn't the way to have a discussion. Like I said, I don't use the term "brainwashing" very often. I wasn't brainwashed when I was a child. I was taught. And then I grew up and taught myself something new. And then I changed my belief system. There was nothing overtly nefarious about it.

I think a tongue-in-cheek strawman argument is a fine response to an Reductio ad absurdum claim that she may have come by her beliefs on her own.

So what do you think "brainwashing" means?

"Brainwashing" means to cause one to adapt a radical belief by the application of systemic pressure.


The catholics certainly have a polished system and they apply enormous pressure to their children to believe ridiculous things like crackers turning to human flesh in your tummy. That wouldn't happen to a non-brainwashed person. Just because your mommy "taught" you about god, doesn't mean she wasn't brainwashing you about god. In fact, that is exactly what she was doing, just like my parents.

[*Deidre*]

As a side note, if you are presenting facts per your example above, I may disagree at first but that would be due to my lack of knowledge. I can verify what you are telling me since it's factual. Religion isn't about finding facts, it is about believing in a fantasy, one that sometimes serves a person as a buffer to reality.

When you turn off religion, reality is always there. Should be considered an illegal substance considering all the damage it does. lol

---

If you were expressing something untrue trying to get those who disagree to agree with you, then yes. Even if your intentions were good.

The road to hell is paved with good in....

Aw, you know the rest. lol

No, Deidre. Answer the question.

If I state that Washington D.C. is the capital city of the United States and that all the other cities of the United States do not qualify to be called the capital city of the United States, and I then go on to say that anyone who disagrees with this is wrong, would you consider me to be arrogant for stating the truth?

Yes or no?

If I say that 2+2 is four and that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, would you consider me to be arrogant for stating the truth?

I think you get my point. You are a smart woman.

If a Christian says that this woman's condition is a result of being born into a fallen, sinful, dying world, and that this sin owes its existence to the choice of free creatures, and if this is true, then why would you consider it arrogant for a Christian to state the truth and also state that anyone who disagrees is wrong?

Why would that be arrogant?

We were posting at the same time lol I replied before I saw this reply of yours.

But to answer your question, Christians are guessing as to why she has this condition. To say they know why, is arrogant, (and ignorant) when they don't know why. Religion isn't a get out of jail free card, discipulus. lol I expect when someone uses it to verify something else that they back up their assertions with facts.

Christianity wasn't built on facts.

[discipulus]

As a side note, if you are presenting facts per your example above, I may disagree at first but that would be due to my lack of knowledge. I can verify what you are telling me since it's factual. Religion isn't about finding facts, it is about believing in a fantasy, one that sometimes serves a person as a buffer to reality.

When you turn off religion, reality is always there. Should be considered an illegal substance considering all the damage it does. lol

So you would not consider me arrogant if I were relaying to you something that was factual?

I am glad you say that.

So the matter really is whether or not Christianity is true. You see, the central tenets of Christianity are subject to verification and falsification, which excludes it from the category of fantasy which you so desperately want it to be in.

[*Deidre*]

As a side note, if you are presenting facts per your example above, I may disagree at first but that would be due to my lack of knowledge. I can verify what you are telling me since it's factual. Religion isn't about finding facts, it is about believing in a fantasy, one that sometimes serves a person as a buffer to reality.

When you turn off religion, reality is always there. Should be considered an illegal substance considering all the damage it does. lol

So you would not consider me arrogant if I were relaying to you something that was factual?

I am glad you say that.

So the matter really is whether or not Christianity is true. You see, the central tenets of Christianity are subject to verification and falsification, which excludes it from the category of fantasy which you so desperately want it to be in.

It is fantasy, it doesn't require me placing it in that category.

And no, if you present facts that I'm unaware of that can be objectively proven or disproven, the sheer fact that I disagree with you, wouldn't cause me to view you as arrogant.

Christianity isn't based on facts. Sigh.

"We live in a fallen world," is not factual. Really, discipulus? lol

[Bittersmart]

Come on now, stop that. We both know it's more complicated than that, and reducing what I'm saying to strawmen isn't the way to have a discussion. Like I said, I don't use the term "brainwashing" very often. I wasn't brainwashed when I was a child. I was taught. And then I grew up and taught myself something new. And then I changed my belief system. There was nothing overtly nefarious about it.

I think a tongue-in-cheek strawman argument is a fine response to an Reductio ad absurdum claim that she may have come by her beliefs on her own.

So what do you think "brainwashing" means?

"Brainwashing" means to cause one to adapt a radical belief by the application of systemic pressure.


The catholics certainly have a polished system and they apply enormous pressure to their children to believe ridiculous things like crackers turning to human flesh in your tummy. That wouldn't happen to a non-brainwashed person. Just because your mommy "taught" you about god, doesn't mean she wasn't brainwashing you about god. In fact, that is exactly what she was doing, just like my parents.

Do you hold any beliefs or opinions that you came to on your own? I'm sure you do. Why is religion any different? Sure, religious indoctrination exists and we see it all over the world, but people can and do come to religious beliefs on their own, as well. I knew an atheist that said she had an "experience" and began to believe in god. It's not absurd. Frankly, I don't think you know enough about this woman to conclude she was "brainwashed", and if you think that opinion is absurd, we don't have much more to say to each other.

And no, my mother didn't brainwash me. Again, she taught me. And when I learned something new, I changed my beliefs. She didn't apply systemic pressure and she always let me make my own choices, even though she didn't approve of some of them.

You need to stop assuming so much about other people.