Sad christian brainwashing.

[Brakeman]

So the matter really is whether or not Christianity is true. You see, the central tenets of Christianity are subject to verification and falsification,

oooooh! Look at the qualification in that statement! The "CENTRAL" tenets!

So why is it so necessary to constrain oneself to a set of especially selected "central" tenets?

The bible and the whole god story has to be perfect, down to every "jot and tittle" or else the whole story collapses. Only desperate apologists claim otherwise.

[discipulus]

So the matter really is whether or not Christianity is true. You see, the central tenets of Christianity are subject to verification and falsification,

oooooh! Look at the qualification in that statement! The "CENTRAL" tenets!

So why is it so necessary to constrain oneself to a set of especially selected "central" tenets?

The bible and the whole god story has to be perfect, down to every "jot and tittle" or else the whole story collapses. Only desperate apologists claim otherwise.

You do not have to constrain yourself if you do not want to.

If God raised Jesus from the dead on the Sunday morning following His crucifixion then Christianity is true i.e. God has come among men in the person of His Son Jesus.

Christianity stands or falls on this historical fact, not whether every word in the English translations of the Bible are "perfect" representatives of their Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek counterparts.

One does not have to believe in the inerrancy of scripture to be a Christian. I do not know where you got that from.

---

So you would not consider me arrogant if I were relaying to you something that was factual?

I am glad you say that.

So the matter really is whether or not Christianity is true. You see, the central tenets of Christianity are subject to verification and falsification, which excludes it from the category of fantasy which you so desperately want it to be in.

It is fantasy, it doesn't require me placing it in that category.

And no, if you present facts that I'm unaware of that can be objectively proven or disproven, the sheer fact that I disagree with you, wouldn't cause me to view you as arrogant.

Christianity isn't based on facts. Sigh.

"We live in a fallen world," is not factual. Really, discipulus? lol

Christianity is based on historical events and facts. It seems to me that since you claim to have been raised around all of this then you would know this.

[Brakeman]

Do you hold any beliefs or opinions that you came to on your own? I'm sure you do. Why is religion any different?

It is different because it is a radically alternate belief than one I would have come up with on my own.
The church is a movement which has authored many stories to further it's own end. I as a rational person would not have considered believable that the earth and the sun were held in place for an hour so that some goat herders could win a sword battle. However, because I was taught (brainwashed) that god is good, real, loves me, and that he can do all kinds of magic, I didn't doubt this story as a young child. Thankfully I grew free of my church's brainwashing.
If you claim that you probably would have come up with the same beliefs as a child without your parents and churches constant braying on how god and the bible is real, then you are actually making my humorous strawman analogy into a serious argument. I would love to hear your scenario of how someone starts believing any of that crap without a back story of religious indoctrination that is rightfully called brainwashing.

I knew an atheist that said she had an "experience" and began to believe in god. It's not absurd.

I have never once heard of any examples of such and I cannot imagine how that could occur. If you don't think it is absurd, explain to us how you think someone could figuratively trip and fall into believing the horde of absurdities found in the bible.

And no, my mother didn't brainwash me. Again, she taught me.

Are you saying that she presented both sides to the story, such as "the Adam and Eve story could also be just ignorant desert men trying to understand the origin of man because they could not fathom evolution.." Something like that? That would be "teaching". Filling your nursery bookshelves with Jesus and Noah stories is brainwashing. Whether you wish to admit it or not.

She didn't apply systemic pressure.

Did she:

1. Take you to church regularly to expose you to social pressure to conform with their beliefs.

2. Expose you to rather constant imagery of the religion. Crosses, Bibles, Pictures of Jesus

3. Tell you uncritical stories of god.

4. Buy religious children's books for you throughout your childhood, and read them to you.

5. Refer to christians as being a "Good" group and use the term "good christian"

6. Pray around you often, perhaps even prodding you to "Pray".

7. When attending funerals, or mentioning death, consistently say that they are in a better place, and/or with Jesus in heaven.

I could go on, but if your mom didn't do most of these I'll eat my proverbial hat. These are classical elements of brainwashing, just as it is performed for the North Koreans.

[*Deidre*]

oooooh! Look at the qualification in that statement! The "CENTRAL" tenets!

So why is it so necessary to constrain oneself to a set of especially selected "central" tenets?

The bible and the whole god story has to be perfect, down to every "jot and tittle" or else the whole story collapses. Only desperate apologists claim otherwise.

You do not have to constrain yourself if you do not want to.

If God raised Jesus from the dead on the Sunday morning following His crucifixion then Christianity is true i.e. God has come among men in the person of His Son Jesus.

Christianity stands or falls on this historical fact, not whether every word in the English translations of the Bible are "perfect" representatives of their Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek counterparts.

One does not have to believe in the inerrancy of scripture to be a Christian. I do not know where you got that from.

---

It is fantasy, it doesn't require me placing it in that category.

And no, if you present facts that I'm unaware of that can be objectively proven or disproven, the sheer fact that I disagree with you, wouldn't cause me to view you as arrogant.

Christianity isn't based on facts. Sigh.

"We live in a fallen world," is not factual. Really, discipulus? lol

Christianity is based on historical events and facts. It seems to me that since you claim to have been raised around all of this then you would know this.

If that were in fact true, that Christianty was based on actual historical facts and not hearsay and religious mythology, I'd still be a Christian.

On another note, when/if you ever set up a debate thread, and we do end up officially debating...I will use the Bible, to appease you, to show YOU how it contradicts the religion of Christianity. If you look back in the NT, Jesus was rather explicit that he didn't want to be equated to 'God,' nor did he appreciate religion, as a set of rituals and hoopla. He embraced his Jewish roots, and followed the Jewish customs of the time, but if you ask me, he was a Socialist (in the true sense of the word not what it's morphed into, today) and he was against organized religion. So, for the sake of 'using' the Bible as a resource, I will, to show you how I think the 'early church fathers' in their attempt to add to the Jesus story more than needed to be done (the story as we know it, not as it might have been), spawned a religion, against Jesus' very own directive.

Something about me: I didn't depart from Christianity (and not pursue any other religions) solely based on the fact that it's not based on facts, but I left it because the very story of Jesus, should he have actually lived, is not the true story. If Jesus truly existed, I don't believe that he wanted a religion built around him. He speaks out against ''religion'' in a variety of ways, throughout the NT.

That is mainly why I left Christianity, because I think that the early church fathers lied about who Jesus was, and that is why I started examining other parts of the Bible, such as Genesis, etc. I thought to myself, hmmm, if they lied about the NT, then what else might be a lie? Turns out, the whole fucking story is a lie. From start to finish.

My disinterest to ever puruse any other religion ever again, is due to the fact that Christianity being the lie that it is, is not unlike other religions, that are mere man made 'inventions' to control the masses. The Abrahamic faiths in particular, but every culture has a dominant 'religion' or set of beliefs at its core. Religion becomes a way of life and a mindset, even part of the government in some countries. All of them, are built on man's interpretation of what he cannot explain on his own, yet. Why are we not comfortable with simply saying 'I don't know,' when confronted with the 'mysteries' of life. 'God did it,' seems like the 'go to' phrase, for many people who wish to explain life in a nice, neat way. It's ok to say...'I don't know.'

I left Christianity mainly because I believe it was constructed in order to control and deceive people. The Bible isn't an innocent book of folklore, designed to provide a moral code 'to the world.' It is a book of deception. And I intend to prove it, plainly, when we debate. If a god exists, you will not find him/it in the Bible ''story.'' And, this is how I came to be Agnostic.

And for the record, I like many ''ex'' Christians, didn't leave behind my faith, easily, or take leaving it, lightly. But, the evidence against the credibility and even morality of Christianity, was too staggering for me to ignore. I was heartbroken, to be honest, to know that I 'celebrated' a set of lies for so long. That needs to be said because I believe that Atheists/Agnostics are thought of as being smug and quick to look at religion as ''irrational.'' It wasn't a quick thing for me, but rather a slow awakening to truth, and realizing that I needed to follow real truth, and not the truth that I was indoctrinated to believe, since I was a child.

It makes me sad knowing what I know now. Sometimes, ignorance is better. :/

[downbeatplumb]

If a Christian says that this woman's condition is a result of being born into a fallen, sinful, dying world, and that this sin owes its existence to the choice of free creatures, and if this is true, then why would you consider it arrogant for a Christian to state the truth and also state that anyone who disagrees is wrong?

Why would that be arrogant?

Thanks for that.

I needed a laugh.

[Brakeman]

One does not have to believe in the inerrancy of scripture to be a Christian. I do not know where you got that from.

Well allow me to whack that down for you. If the bible contains errors, then the writers of the bible lied about it being god's word written by the divine guidance of the holy ghost, as instead it would be simply man's story about god, without any divine information. If the bible has errors then the story given to the writers by the holy spirit has errors, and if you claim that the holy spirit makes errors, then the holy spirit isn't of god quality as is the basis of the whole con.

If god makes mistakes, how in the hell did he ever become god?

[*Deidre*]

I think a tongue-in-cheek strawman argument is a fine response to an Reductio ad absurdum claim that she may have come by her beliefs on her own.

So what do you think "brainwashing" means?

"Brainwashing" means to cause one to adapt a radical belief by the application of systemic pressure.


The catholics certainly have a polished system and they apply enormous pressure to their children to believe ridiculous things like crackers turning to human flesh in your tummy. That wouldn't happen to a non-brainwashed person. Just because your mommy "taught" you about god, doesn't mean she wasn't brainwashing you about god. In fact, that is exactly what she was doing, just like my parents.

Do you hold any beliefs or opinions that you came to on your own? I'm sure you do. Why is religion any different? Sure, religious indoctrination exists and we see it all over the world, but people can and do come to religious beliefs on their own, as well. I knew an atheist that said she had an "experience" and began to believe in god. It's not absurd. Frankly, I don't think you know enough about this woman to conclude she was "brainwashed", and if you think that opinion is absurd, we don't have much more to say to each other.

And no, my mother didn't brainwash me. Again, she taught me. And when I learned something new, I changed my beliefs. She didn't apply systemic pressure and she always let me make my own choices, even though she didn't approve of some of them.

You need to stop assuming so much about other people.

I don't disagree, but not speaking for Brakeman, but I *think* what he might be inferring is that if religion and the notion of God wasn't already something to 'choose from,' people would never end up clinging to it, in the first place. No one 'needs' religion. Religious folks will argue that it's a necessity, like food and water. It's not.

I know, because I used to believe this, and ''promote'' it as such. Many Christians promote it as such. But, that would be a lie, and we can call it something else, but when we speak dishonest statements, they are in fact 'lies.' Religion is probably the only arena where lies are ''accepted.'' Call it 'faith,' or 'religion,' and the lies become 'okay.'

[DarkHorse]

You do not have to constrain yourself if you do not want to.

If God raised Jesus from the dead on the Sunday morning following His crucifixion then Christianity is true i.e. God has come among men in the person of His Son Jesus.

Christianity stands or falls on this historical fact, not whether every word in the English translations of the Bible are "perfect" representatives of their Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek counterparts.

One does not have to believe in the inerrancy of scripture to be a Christian. I do not know where you got that from.

---

Christianity is based on historical events and facts. It seems to me that since you claim to have been raised around all of this then you would know this.

If that were in fact true, that Christianty was based on actual historical facts and not hearsay and religious mythology, I'd still be a Christian.

On another note, when/if you ever set up a debate thread, and we do end up officially debating...I will use the Bible, to appease you, to show YOU how it contradicts the religion of Christianity. If you look back in the NT, Jesus was rather explicit that he didn't want to be equated to 'God,' nor did he appreciate religion, as a set of rituals and hoopla. He embraced his Jewish roots, and followed the Jewish customs of the time, but if you ask me, he was a Socialist (in the true sense of the word not what it's morphed into, today) and he was against organized religion. So, for the sake of 'using' the Bible as a resource, I will, to show you how I think the 'early church fathers' in their attempt to add to the Jesus story more than needed to be done (the story as we know it, not as it might have been), spawned a religion, against Jesus' very own directive.

Something about me: I didn't depart from Christianity (and not pursue any other religions) solely based on the fact that it's not based on facts, but I left it because the very story of Jesus, should he have actually lived, is not the true story. If Jesus truly existed, I don't believe that he wanted a religion built around him. He speaks out against ''religion'' in a variety of ways, throughout the NT.

That is mainly why I left Christianity, because I think that the early church fathers lied about who Jesus was, and that is why I started examining other parts of the Bible, such as Genesis, etc. I thought to myself, hmmm, if they lied about the NT, then what else might be a lie? Turns out, the whole fucking story is a lie. From start to finish.

My disinterest to ever puruse any other religion ever again, is due to the fact that Christianity being the lie that it is, is not unlike other religions, that are mere man made 'inventions' to control the masses. The Abrahamic faiths in particular, but every culture has a dominant 'religion' or set of beliefs at its core. Religion becomes a way of life and a mindset, even part of the government in some countries. All of them, are built on man's interpretation of what he cannot explain on his own, yet. Why are we not comfortable with simply saying 'I don't know,' when confronted with the 'mysteries' of life. 'God did it,' seems like the 'go to' phrase, for many people who wish to explain life in a nice, neat way. It's ok to say...'I don't know.'

I left Christianity mainly because I believe it was constructed in order to control and deceive people. The Bible isn't an innocent book of folklore, designed to provide a moral code 'to the world.' It is a book of deception. And I intend to prove it, plainly, when we debate. If a god exists, you will not find him/it in the Bible ''story.'' And, this is how I came to be Agnostic.

And for the record, I like many ''ex'' Christians, didn't leave behind my faith, easily, or take leaving it, lightly. But, the evidence against the credibility and even morality of Christianity, was too staggering for me to ignore. I was heartbroken, to be honest, to know that I 'celebrated' a set of lies for so long. That needs to be said because I believe that Atheists/Agnostics are thought of as being smug and quick to look at religion as ''irrational.'' It wasn't a quick thing for me, but rather a slow awakening to truth, and realizing that I needed to follow real truth, and not the truth that I was indoctrinated to believe, since I was a child.

It makes me sad knowing what I know now. Sometimes, ignorance is better. :/

It happened the same way with me, so I hear you.

[Bittersmart]

Did she:

1. Take you to church regularly to expose you to social pressure to conform with their beliefs.

Yes and no. She took me to church. I was not punished for expressing different opinions from the pastor, though. So, there was no pressure to conform.

2. Expose you to rather constant imagery of the religion. Crosses, Bibles, Pictures of Jesus

No. The only thing religious in my house were our Bibles.

3. Tell you uncritical stories of god.

No. I read the stories for myself in the Bible.

4. Buy religious children's books for you throughout your childhood, and read them to you.

No.

5. Refer to christians as being a "Good" group and use the term "good christian"

No. My mother is a social worker, she believes in the good in everyone.

6. Pray around you often, perhaps even prodding you to "Pray".

No, not often. Only in church and at, like, Thanksgiving dinner.

7. When attending funerals, or mentioning death, consistently say that they are in a better place, and/or with Jesus in heaven.

Yes, although that is par for the course.I have yet to meet a theist who doesn't believe in an afterlife.

I could go on, but if your mom didn't do most of these I'll eat my proverbial hat. These are classical elements of brainwashing, just as it is performed for the North Koreans.

I hope your hat is delicious.

Are we done with this now?

[DarkHorse]

It's pathetic that this "loving" god would give someone a disease. What's even worse is that people think that's the case. So then if they claim they're rational human beings, how can these things go together? Unbelievable that they can't see the flaw in their beliefs.