Alternatives to AA

[Rahul]

Dude, I am a critic of AA, there are elements of their approach I do not like one bit, but even I can't say in good conscious that it doesn't work:

AA takes credit for a lot of people that would have quit drinking on their own. Moreso, I've met people with serious mental problems that were instructed by their AA sponsor to quit taking medically prescribed medication for those issues.

And that's a huge problem. They set you up with some idiot in a position of authority over a person that is extremely vulnerable and use a cult mentality to brow beat them into going along with them.

In any other area of medicine, if your doctor told you that the cure for your disease involved surrendering to a “higher power,” praying to have your “defects of character” lifted, and accepting your “powerlessness,” as outlined in the original 12 steps, you’d probably seek a second opinion. But, even today, if you balk at these elements of the 12-step gospel, you’ll often get accused of being “in denial.” And if you should succeed in quitting drinking without 12-step support, you might get dismissed as a “dry drunk.”

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/books-an...lem-74268/

[Chas]

There are online groups that hold virtual meetings. AA sucks not just because of all the god talk but because of all the attitudes there. People getting pissy because people are getting off drugs and not alcohol coming to meetings, clicks forming, people talking shit about each other over retarded shit. It's like going back to high school but worse.

That's true of some groups, not so of others.

They also teach you a lot of shit that is not good. Medical science dealing with addiction advances every year. AA has been doing the same shit for 75 years. And it mainly hinges on being a born again religious retard.

No, it doesn't actually depend on that. I entered AA an atheist, and an atheist I remain.

[SteelCurtain]

That's not been my experience with facilitating meetings.... I am most likely an idiot, but I was extremely well trained, and while I can't speak for all AA meetings I've been to a ton of them, and I've never experienced a cult mentality. You can shop around until you connect with someone, and connecting with people increases your odds of success.

The whole point of the "higher power" thing is to get you to acknowledge that there are things beyond your control in the world, and that the only thing you can control is your actions. There are certainly some groups that are more religious than others, but in many of the groups I've sat in, there were plenty of non-religious people that didn't want to call their higher power "god." Which was fine. They worked their steps calling their higher power the ocean (the Navy...), the cosmos, even the group. You don't pray to your higher power (you can if you want to), you trust that getting help from an outside source is important. The whole point is that people who struggle with alcoholism and addiction for the most part keep everything inside, they don't like to talk about it, they cope with it by themselves. The thought is that success is MUCH more reachable if you allow others in on your thinking. Addiction does funny things to your thought processes, and having others show you that is vital.

[*Deidre*]

Bittersmart, I'm not sure if AA is the right approach for you. It is geared around religion. One of the key components of it is how a person is "powerless" over their addiction and needs God to help them into recovery. I know a few people who have done well through AA, but they were believers.

Are there any groups in your area for atheists who are struggling with alcoholism? And it might be a good idea to start a support thread here and see if others join in. Like an online support thread. Not the same as an in person group, but at least there will be like minded people here to support you.

You're in my thoughts. I hope you find something that works for you.

[Chas]

AA doesn't address the reason one over indulges in alcohol. Get to the root of what you sense may be any loss or lack in your life situation, not just currently, but over the years - look for gaps that may look alike that you chose to fill with drinking. You alone have the key to why you drink and how to stop. Trust yourself.

Yes, it does. Ever heard of the 12 Steps?

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Dude, I am a critic of AA, there are elements of their approach I do not like one bit, but even I can't say in good conscious that it doesn't work:

AA takes credit for a lot of people that would have quit drinking on their own. Moreso, I've met people with serious mental problems that were instructed by their AA sponsor to quit taking medically prescribed medication for those issues.

And that's a huge problem. They set you up with some idiot in a position of authority over a person that is extremely vulnerable and use a cult mentality to brow beat them into going along with them.

In any other area of medicine, if your doctor told you that the cure for your disease involved surrendering to a “higher power,” praying to have your “defects of character” lifted, and accepting your “powerlessness,” as outlined in the original 12 steps, you’d probably seek a second opinion. But, even today, if you balk at these elements of the 12-step gospel, you’ll often get accused of being “in denial.” And if you should succeed in quitting drinking without 12-step support, you might get dismissed as a “dry drunk.”

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/books-an...lem-74268/

You are generalizing from insufficient knowledge. You don't appear to have first-hand knowledge.

---

Bittersmart, I'm not sure if AA is the right approach for you. It is geared around religion. One of the key components of it is how a person is "powerless" over their addiction and needs God to help them into recovery. I know a few people who have done well through AA, but they were believers.

Are there any groups in your area for atheists who are struggling with alcoholism? And it might be a good idea to start a support thread here and see if others join in. Like an online support thread. Not the same as an in person group, but at least there will be like minded people here to support you.

You're in my thoughts. I hope you find something that works for you.

I think you are overstating those points. AA requires no belief, and says so.

I have been a sober atheist for nearly 25 years. I entered AA an atheist, and an atheist I remain.

[*Deidre*]

Just a quick google search shows that two of the key points are admitting you have no control over your addiction (which isn't true) and the need for a higher power.

No disrespect Chas, but every person I've known who has gone through AA, states that this is the mantra. You could pretend to not hear it as an atheist but then why give it credit?

[SteelCurtain]

Just a quick google search shows that two of the key points are admitting you have no control over your addiction (which isn't true) and the need for a higher power.

No disrespect Chas, but every person I've known who has gone through AA, states that this is the mantra. You could pretend to not hear it as an atheist but then why give it credit?

Admitting you have no control over the addiction and having no control over your actions are two very different things. Believe me, I have seen a lot of addicts. In the throes of addiction, you do not have control over the disease.

And like I've said before, the higher power doesn't have to be a supernatural being. It can be something natural that gives you a sense of awe and peace, and is a bridge for the idea that you cannot do it alone.

The wording of the steps is of no importance next to how they manifest in practice.

[*Deidre*]

/deleted

Bowing out of this discussion.

[Chas]

/deleted

Bowing out of this discussion.

SteelCurtain has the right of it. I'm sorry this disagrees with your view.

I strongly suspect my sample size of people who have tried AA is a great deal larger than yours.

Are there religious people in AA? Certainly.

Can the non-religious use AA to their benefit? Certainly.

I am not saying AA is the only path, or even the best path, to follow; just a path that works for many.

[Aractus]

AA takes credit for a lot of people that would have quit drinking on their own.

Well that much is bullshit. Alcoholics are often dependant like an addiction and thus unable to simply "quit on their own".

Moreso, I've met people with serious mental problems that were instructed by their AA sponsor to quit taking medically prescribed medication for those issues.

I'm pretty sure that's not the norm, I know people who've gone through AA and certainly didn't change the medication they were on whilst there.

And that's a huge problem. They set you up with some idiot in a position of authority over a person that is extremely vulnerable and use a cult mentality to brow beat them into going along with them.

You are mixing deceit with facts. Yes someone who's dependant on a substance can be seen as "vulnerable", and yes someone who is going to help this person, be it a doctor a counsellor a priest a policeman or a parent or whoever is put into a position of authority, but that in no way means that they are automatically likely to abuse their authority or prey on the vulnerable, AA is specifically set up to help alcoholics succeed at quitting drinking, and it works co-currently with other methods that patients may be using (medication, counselling, etc). A friend of mine was going to a 12-step program at the same time as seeing a psychologist about the same problem, so don't go saying that AA replaces medical therapy since that's not what it's designed to do, it's a support-group based program and support groups do not interfere with medical help.

In any other area of medicine, if your doctor told you that the cure for your disease involved surrendering to a “higher power,” praying to have your “defects of character” lifted, and accepting your “powerlessness,” as outlined in the original 12 steps, you’d probably seek a second opinion. But, even today, if you balk at these elements of the 12-step gospel, you’ll often get accused of being “in denial.” And if you should succeed in quitting drinking without 12-step support, you might get dismissed as a “dry drunk.”

Further bullshit - as I mentioned I've known more than one person that's gone to a 12-step program, hell I know one person that was ex-communicated from one! And I can attest that all of them were also receiving some form of medical advice as well, even if it was just antidepressants from their GP.

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Just a quick google search shows that two of the key points are admitting you have no control over your addiction (which isn't true) and the need for a higher power.

Who are you to say that it isn't true?

I look at substance dependence kind of like anorexia nervosa - which is a disease that patients are unable to control on their own. There have actually been a number of advances in the treatment of anorexia - for a very long time the norm is to wait for patients to suffer enough that their health is clearly impacted by their eating disorder, and then put them into forced therapy where they are taught how to eat, and then released back into their homes. I see AA as similar to this approach, in that it's got this therapeutic group mentality - but the problem with it is that it allows the people who are suffering from the disease to influence each other and to undo some of the important work. And furthermore, it doesn't change how people behave and respond in their every day lives - for instance with anorexia, patients view eating as a very private thing and typically have a great fear of eating in public - it's one thing to get them to eat together in a clinic, but it's another to get someone to go out on their own to the local mall, sit down and eat a meal in a busy food court surrounded by strangers. So there is now a new approach being researched from Germany that seems to have promise where therapists do not put patients into inpatient-care at all, nor give them forced-feeding, but instead only provide outpatient care (the counselling, advice and assistance directly to the patients in their daily lives) so that they can make the more meaningful changes (here's a link).

What AA does works, however as Rahul says their approach is getting dated because there are new ways to treat this kind of behaviour that are possibly more effective. But, AA is available to alcoholics now, and the in-home direct targeted outpatient approach isn't - the next best thing is simply to go see your psychologist. What I would expect to see in the future though is psychologists who specialize in substance abuse to offer the direct outpatient counselling and support 24 hours a day (this would forever replace the accountability system AA uses) to their patients in-home, without the patient ever needing to go to them for therapy, and I believe that is the way forward for alcoholism and other similar psychological problems.