Christians choose delusion

[Bronwynn]

My words to you don't come from desperation. Or fevered imagination. I am not delusional. I am not a bible thumping "Christian" who goes to church every Sunday to look good for others. I don't handle snakes and scream and carry on, as others do. I am simply one person who knows God, who worships and prays to Him in the solitude of my own home.

The "heart" I was referring to was not the blood pumping organ, that is visible. I was speaking of the "heart" we are given, which is spoke of in the bible as being; deceitful above all things, full of wickedness, and who can know it? it is a bottomless pit because there is no end to it, no bottom. The invisible Heart is also in countless songs that I'm sure you have sung; I left my heart in San Fransisco, My heart will go on, Heart breaker, my broken heart, etc. etc. We can agree that everyone has a heart such as this, that is what I was referring to.

The point I was trying to show you is simply this.
You can believe that air, which is invisible, is real.
The heart, which is invisible, is real.
The mind, whose images and sounds cannot be grasped, is real.
God, who is invisible, who cannot be grasped, is real.

we are made of visible and invisible things. I look at myself in the mirror and say, yes that is me. Yet, the greater part of me is what I do not see. That part, which is invisible I have recognized, and embraced and that part is joined with God. Yet I carry around this flesh, which is aging and breaking down, yet I am alive because of Him.
Consider how things grow. The seed in all of us, can be brought to growth through God. Or do you believe that you are alive, waiting to die? the opposite is true. We are only made alive through the life giving seed from above. this place, called hades or whatever you want to call it, is not Gods kingdom. This wretched place is called death. And Jesus was born into this world to take us out of here. He is the door which leads upward.

"For the Son of Man clothed himself with their first-fruits; he went down to Hades and performed many mighty works. He raised the dead therein; and the world-rulers of darkness became envious of him, for they did not find sin in him. But he also destroyed their works from among men, so that the lame, the blind, the paralytic, the dumb, (and) the demon-possessed were granted healing".--testimony of truth

If you can agree that there are visible and invisible things in the world, and that there are visible and invisible things in us, why then is it a stretch of the imagination to believe in something similar known as God? I believe in Him, not out of fear, or a need to believe in signs, but out of genuine truth.
His words are life. For many years, I did not get that. I always believed that a God exists, but He was so far removed from me as the moon. I would try to read the bible and it was a closed book to me, no different then reading the dictionary. Just words and parables I did not understand. Then the veil was removed. And it was not removed because my imagination decided to fool myself, because >He did not come so therefore I will make myself believe in something that's not really there<
No. Something in me truly broke. And by my own sheer determination, I was going to find the answers I had been seeking my whole life. And because I was filled, and because I believed and trusted Him, and accepted Him, I asked to truly know Him. He came to me. And words in the bible began to tie together, and come to life and fit, and I understood things that were closed off from me before. His words became life.
And I have greater faith in Him because He is invisible. I do not need to see Him, to believe. I have lesser faith in that which is visible, because those things are dying and temporary. This existence is temporary. Time is temporary and one day you and I won't be in this place anymore and where we will go, only God knows.
But ask yourself this; while you have the opportunity to find Him and ask Him to help you, is there any part of you willing to do that? or is choosing to become ash and dust the better choice?

[NoraBrimstone]

Oh yeah, you're not delusional at all...

Apart from all that delusional crap you just typed.

[Foxaèr]

we are made of visible and invisible things.

False. Everything of which we are made is visible or its effects can be measured to some repeated degree through testing.

And Jesus was born into this world to take us out of here. He is the door which leads upward.

False, he is the door that leads to delusion.

why then is it a stretch of the imagination to believe in something similar known as God?

Everything in the world, yes everything, that we can determine to be factual, is from studying and understanding the natural world around us.

Nothing we know the veracity about is invisible as you seem to view it.

If there is no evidence for the existence of something, then the default position is rationally that it does not exist.

Only theists with their twisted concepts of ill logic attempt to make the absurd claim that something must exist despite the lack of evidence for its existence.

I believe in Him, not out of fear, or a need to believe in signs, but out of genuine truth.

False. You believe in your god because of faith, which is the opposite of truth. You want to believe in him more than anything else, because the thought of him is more comforting than the harsh truth that he does not exist.

And I have greater faith in Him because He is invisible. I do not need to see Him, to believe. I have lesser faith in that which is visible

Which is irrational and delusional.

This existence is temporary.

Indeed, and it is the only existence that we have. Wanting there to be an afterlife does not make one magically be there through your desire alone.

But ask yourself this; while you have the opportunity to find Him and ask Him to help you, is there any part of you willing to do that?

Not any more. When I used to be a hardcore Christian, I sought him with fervor despite the fact that I already believed in him. The ironic thing is that theists claim to know him when the furthest is from the truth. They merely wish they knew him or only know him through delusion, because the reality is that his presence is not available to be properly accessed except as in the form of wishful thinking in the minds of delusional theists.

or is choosing to become ash and dust the better choice?

It is what we all become in the end, anyway. No choice is involved. It is an inevitabiliity.

[Confused Ape]

The point I was trying to show you is simply this.
You can believe that air, which is invisible, is real.

I don't have to believe that air is real.

Air - - Is It Really There?

Summary
By watching and performing several simple experiments, students develop an understanding of the properties of air: it has mass, it takes up space, it can move, it exerts pressure, it can do work.

And because I was filled, and because I believed and trusted Him, and accepted Him, I asked to truly know Him. He came to me. And words in the bible began to tie together, and come to life and fit, and I understood things that were closed off from me before. His words became life.

If I'm interpreting that correctly you had some kind of subjective experience and believed it was the Christian God because that's what you expected to contact. You then started interpreting the Bible in relation to your experience.

You aren't the only Christian who has reported something like this. The problem is that Christians who had the same subjective experience still came up with different interpretations of the Bible even though they believed that God was helping them to understand what was written. If the Christian God really existed you'd think he'd make sure that all Christians came up with the same interpretation so there aren't thousands of different Christian denominations.

The Christian God isn't the only deity which people believe in. A modern pagan who worships The Goddess could have the same subjective experience. They would then interpret it as being The Goddess because that's what they expected to contact.

But ask yourself this; while you have the opportunity to find Him and ask Him to help you, is there any part of you willing to do that? or is choosing to become ash and dust the better choice?

As I've reported several times in this forum, the Greek deity, Apollo, once appeared to me in a dream. He was a very powerful presence in the dream and I knew he was a god because of it. Going by what you've said in your post I should now believe he really does exist and start worshipping him.

[Cyberman]

My words to you don't come from desperation. Or fevered imagination. I am not delusional.

And yet:

I am simply one person who knows God, who worships and prays to Him in the solitude of my own home.

If I swapped out the word "God" with Ganesh, or Zeus, or Ceiling Cat, what conclusion would you make as to the state of my imagination and/or grasp of reality?

How do you know anything at all about this "God"? On what are you basing the information? Fuzzy warm feelings? We all get those, but not everyone paints a face on them and prays to them. Even those that do so can't agree on what this god is supposed to be.

The point I was trying to show you is simply this.
You can believe that air, which is invisible, is real.

And detectable.

The heart, which is invisible, is real.

And measurable.

The mind, whose images and sounds cannot be grasped, is real.

And measurable.

God, who is invisible, who cannot be grasped, is real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxfZbj5vf7Y

we are made of visible and invisible things.

But not non-existent things.

I look at myself in the mirror and say, yes that is me. Yet, the greater part of me is what I do not see. That part, which is invisible I have recognized, and embraced and that part is joined with God. Yet I carry around this flesh, which is aging and breaking down, yet I am alive because of Him.

Cool story. How do you know any of this? How can you demonstrate it to others?

Consider how things grow. The seed in all of us, can be brought to growth through God.

What is this seed? Or is it some flowery poetry for something like this heart you used earlier?

Or do you believe that you are alive, waiting to die?

Yes. We are born, we live, we die. That is the reality we all share. If there is anything else, you need to demonstrate it before anyone else is obliged to consider it a possibility.

the opposite is true. We are only made alive through the life giving seed from above. this place, called hades or whatever you want to call it, is not Gods kingdom. This wretched place is called death. And Jesus was born into this world to take us out of here. He is the door which leads upward.

Yeah, well when you bring something to the discussion a little more substantial than nothing at all, I promise I'll listen

[Esquilax]

Has everyone else just missed that this person is continuing to strawman our position by reducing everything we've said to "I can't see it, therefore it's not real."?

How about this, Bronwynn: you stop disrespecting us by ignoring our corrections and going with this absurd, restrictive set of rules that we don't ascribe to, and we'll give what you have to say due thought. But I don't see much point in debating with a person who's willing to lie about what I think.

[coldwx]

My words to you don't come from desperation. Or fevered imagination. I am not delusional. I am not a bible thumping "Christian" who goes to church every Sunday to look good for others. I don't handle snakes and scream and carry on, as others do. I am simply one person who knows God, who worships and prays to Him in the solitude of my own home.

The "heart" I was referring to was not the blood pumping organ, that is visible. I was speaking of the "heart" we are given, which is spoke of in the bible as being; deceitful above all things, full of wickedness, and who can know it? it is a bottomless pit because there is no end to it, no bottom. The invisible Heart is also in countless songs that I'm sure you have sung; I left my heart in San Fransisco, My heart will go on, Heart breaker, my broken heart, etc. etc. We can agree that everyone has a heart such as this, that is what I was referring to.

The point I was trying to show you is simply this.
You can believe that air, which is invisible, is real.
The heart, which is invisible, is real.
The mind, whose images and sounds cannot be grasped, is real.
God, who is invisible, who cannot be grasped, is real.

we are made of visible and invisible things. I look at myself in the mirror and say, yes that is me. Yet, the greater part of me is what I do not see. That part, which is invisible I have recognized, and embraced and that part is joined with God. Yet I carry around this flesh, which is aging and breaking down, yet I am alive because of Him.
Consider how things grow. The seed in all of us, can be brought to growth through God. Or do you believe that you are alive, waiting to die? the opposite is true. We are only made alive through the life giving seed from above. this place, called hades or whatever you want to call it, is not Gods kingdom. This wretched place is called death. And Jesus was born into this world to take us out of here. He is the door which leads upward.

"For the Son of Man clothed himself with their first-fruits; he went down to Hades and performed many mighty works. He raised the dead therein; and the world-rulers of darkness became envious of him, for they did not find sin in him. But he also destroyed their works from among men, so that the lame, the blind, the paralytic, the dumb, (and) the demon-possessed were granted healing".--testimony of truth

If you can agree that there are visible and invisible things in the world, and that there are visible and invisible things in us, why then is it a stretch of the imagination to believe in something similar known as God? I believe in Him, not out of fear, or a need to believe in signs, but out of genuine truth.
His words are life. For many years, I did not get that. I always believed that a God exists, but He was so far removed from me as the moon. I would try to read the bible and it was a closed book to me, no different then reading the dictionary. Just words and parables I did not understand. Then the veil was removed. And it was not removed because my imagination decided to fool myself, because >He did not come so therefore I will make myself believe in something that's not really there<
No. Something in me truly broke. And by my own sheer determination, I was going to find the answers I had been seeking my whole life. And because I was filled, and because I believed and trusted Him, and accepted Him, I asked to truly know Him. He came to me. And words in the bible began to tie together, and come to life and fit, and I understood things that were closed off from me before. His words became life.
And I have greater faith in Him because He is invisible. I do not need to see Him, to believe. I have lesser faith in that which is visible, because those things are dying and temporary. This existence is temporary. Time is temporary and one day you and I won't be in this place anymore and where we will go, only God knows.
But ask yourself this; while you have the opportunity to find Him and ask Him to help you, is there any part of you willing to do that? or is choosing to become ash and dust the better choice?

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may whatever imaginary entity you believe in have mercy on your nonexistent soul.

(Quote changed slightly for my amusement)

[Ben Davis]

My words to you don't come from desperation. Or fevered imagination. I am not delusional. I am not a bible thumping "Christian" who goes to church every Sunday to look good for others. I don't handle snakes and scream and carry on, as others do. I am simply one person who knows God, who worships and prays to Him in the solitude of my own home.

To the outside observer, there's very little difference between the nonsense that's spouted by the 'bible thumpers' and the nonsense that's spouted by the 'cultural' or 'moderate' believers. I guess we'll just have to take your word on this one.

The "heart" I was referring to was not the blood pumping organ, that is visible. I was speaking of the "heart" we are given, which is spoke of in the bible as being; deceitful above all things, full of wickedness, and who can know it? it is a bottomless pit because there is no end to it, no bottom. The invisible Heart is also in countless songs that I'm sure you have sung; I left my heart in San Fransisco, My heart will go on, Heart breaker, my broken heart, etc. etc. We can agree that everyone has a heart such as this, that is what I was referring to.

Sorry, poetic license doesn't give you an escape route here. What you're talking about are the various emotions which were attributed to the heart, instead of the brain, by our more ignorant forebears. When these terms were coined, they actually thought that these feelings were a product of what we now know to be a solely blood-pumping organ. But I'll grant you your license, for the sake of this conversation because you're still wrong: this 'heart' is far from invisible! Using MRI scans, we can visually observe the mechanism of the brain as we experience these emotions. There's no supernatural forces at play here.

The point I was trying to show you is simply this.
You can believe that air, which is invisible, is real.

Not invisible: at our scale we can see its effects and at a microscopic scale, we can see the particles of which air is comprised.

The heart, which is invisible, is real.

Not invisible.

The mind, whose images and sounds cannot be grasped, is real.

Not invisible: I'll refer you to MRI scans, once again.

God, who is invisible, who cannot be grasped, is real.

So your analogy fails to illustrate this point. I'm yet to read any justification for accepting the existence of something which is intangible and undefined.

we are made of visible and invisible things.

Seriously, you need to pay more attention to biology.

I look at myself in the mirror and say, yes that is me. Yet, the greater part of me is what I do not see.

Only because you don't understand. Your whole argument is from ignorance & incredulity.

That part, which is invisible I have recognized, and embraced and that part is joined with God. Yet I carry around this flesh, which is aging and breaking down, yet I am alive because of Him.

Nope, you're alive because of well documented bio-chemical and bio-electric mechanisms.

Consider how things grow.

Okay...

The seed in all of us, can be brought to growth through God.

I was not grown from a seed... Oh, I see, poetic license again. Look, rhetoric & hyperbole are all well & good but they don't constitute a rational argument.

Or do you believe that you are alive, waiting to die?

Actually, I believe I'm alive & living. You'll often find that it's those who believe in an afterlife who are 'waiting to die'. Once again, you're creating unrealistic generalisations (strawmen). Any arguments built against those are false, by definition.

the opposite is true. We are only made alive through the life giving seed from above. this place, called hades or whatever you want to call it, is not Gods kingdom. This wretched place is called death. And Jesus was born into this world to take us out of here. He is the door which leads upward.

"For the Son of Man clothed himself with their first-fruits; he went down to Hades and performed many mighty works. He raised the dead therein; and the world-rulers of darkness became envious of him, for they did not find sin in him. But he also destroyed their works from among men, so that the lame, the blind, the paralytic, the dumb, (and) the demon-possessed were granted healing".--testimony of truth

 
Sorry, this bit is just gibberish.

If you can agree that there are visible and invisible things in the world, and that there are visible and invisible things in us, why then is it a stretch of the imagination to believe in something similar known as God?

I can demonstrate that this position is false therefore it's an irrational stretch of the imagination to believe in this definition of god.

I believe in Him, not out of fear, or a need to believe in signs, but out of genuine truth.
His words are life. For many years, I did not get that. I always believed that a God exists, but He was so far removed from me as the moon. I would try to read the bible and it was a closed book to me, no different then reading the dictionary. Just words and parables I did not understand. Then the veil was removed. And it was not removed because my imagination decided to fool myself, because >He did not come so therefore I will make myself believe in something that's not really there<
No. Something in me truly broke. And by my own sheer determination, I was going to find the answers I had been seeking my whole life. And because I was filled, and because I believed and trusted Him, and accepted Him, I asked to truly know Him. He came to me. And words in the bible began to tie together, and come to life and fit, and I understood things that were closed off from me before. His words became life.
And I have greater faith in Him because He is invisible. I do not need to see Him, to believe. I have lesser faith in that which is visible, because those things are dying and temporary. This existence is temporary. Time is temporary and one day you and I won't be in this place anymore and where we will go, only God knows.
But ask yourself this; while you have the opportunity to find Him and ask Him to help you, is there any part of you willing to do that? or is choosing to become ash and dust the better choice?

And this is all preaching and actually a great demonstration of the OP. Do you have anything of substance to add?

[BlackSwordsman]

So you believe that air; which is invisible, exists and is real because it can be FELT.
I didn't say the mind couldn't be understood. I said it cannot be grasped. For it is in every place, yet it is in no place. what we see in our mind are invisible images. we cannot make them into matter, because they are thoughts and images. Yet they are real, aren't they?
so if we can agree that our thoughts and images we see and hear in our mind which CANNOT BE GRASPED, are real, and the air we CANNOT SEE, but feel, are indeed real, how then can you stop there and say GIVE ME PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS BECAUSE HE CAN'T BE SEEN AND THEREFORE IS NOT REAL.
do you need to see Him, or hear Him or feel Him in order to believe?
If, so why?
Be honest.

Actually let us FORGET that it can be felt, air unlike your "god" is matter, and matter takes up space.

You can easily prove air is matter, and takes up space by filling a balloon with air, notice how the balloon becomes larger, just as it would if there was water in it, well same thing really, now poke a hole in the balloon, you will notice it becomes smaller as air goes out, so there is less MATTER in the balloon.

your god cannot be felt, and is not matter. Humans, dogs, cats, trees, rocks, all have matter

[Bronwynn]

I do not lie. Everything I have said to you is truth. I'm truly sorry if I have disrespected anyone, that was not my intent. I was responding to the post that is titled "Christians are delusional". I was wanting to give you a different perspective, another point of view that maybe you have not heard before. I do not come with an argument, I only come to give peace. I was trying to show only this; if you can agree that both visible things and invisible things are real and equal in balance, then perhaps you could find belief and faith in those things which are unseen.

My God and your God can be felt. My God and your God can be heard and seen.
He is best explained here, in the Nag Hammadi library.
I wish you all peace.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/tripart.htm