Christians choose delusion

[Minimalist]

So you believe that air; which is invisible, exists and is real because it can be FELT.

No, we have EVIDENCE of air. We don't have to 'believe ' in it. A distinction which is doubtlessly lost on the likes of you.

[Mister Agenda]

Prove that your god exists.

No problem

What proof do you want?

"Anything" not allowed. I need you to be precise.

Anything sets the bar too hiigh?

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do you believe that demons exist?

No. Why on earth would I believe that?

they are invisible.

At least.

So is your mind. It cannot be grasped, and located in any scientific way, yet it exists.

And do you know how we know our minds exist that is different from believing demons exist? Scientifically, minds are located in brains, and brains can be grasped, although you wouldn't want someone doing it too casually while you're alive.

So is your heart. also known as the bottomless pit, because no man can know it.

The 'heart' you're talking about is part of our minds, and also located in brains.

And your soul? it is invisible also.

Abstractions tend to be so.

so, you have an invisible heart, an invisible mind and an invisible soul. yet you are reading these words right now. How is that? magic?

How would I read them without a mind? Why do you talk as if there's a contradiction between having a mind and being able to read something? Could it have to do with our visible eyes?

Did you know, you would not be "alive" without the spirit that is breathing life into you at this very moment.

I don't know that, and neither do you. It is a claim you are making. If you don't back it up with evidence, that's all it is.

Air is invisible, and all around us.

And easily detectable by sense of touch.

Do you deny that all these things exist, simply because you can't "see" them?

No. Except for the 'soul' and allowing for your poetic use of language in describing the 'heart', these are all things easily proven to exist or directly experienced by everyone. That's how we know they're real, as much as we can know anything is real. If you define the soul as an immaterial entity that contains our persona and lives on after our physical bodies die: evidence that it's not just wishful thinking, please. It's understandable why primitives who didn't have any way to understand what's going on when they dream would have come up with the idea of disembodied souls, after all, we experience things in what seems to be some other place when we sleep, but we know a little more now than we did then.

'Here's an invisible thing that we know exists' is not evidence for the existence of some 'other invisible thing we don't know exists'. There are a potentially infinite number of invisible things we don't know exist, and most of them actually don't exist.

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So you believe that air; which is invisible, exists and is real because it can be FELT.

Not just because I can feel it. Because everybody can feel it. If I felt something no one else could feel, I couldn't be confident that the sensation corresponds to something that genuinely exists in reality, it could be completely internal. If other people could not feel air, I would not expect them to believe in it unless I provided more evidence than just my subjective feeling: blowing up balloons for instance.

I didn't say the mind couldn't be understood. I said it cannot be grasped. For it is in every place, yet it is in no place. what we see in our mind are invisible images. we cannot make them into matter, because they are thoughts and images. Yet they are real, aren't they?

There is evidence it is in brains, and no evidence of it being elsewhere.

so if we can agree that our thoughts and images we see and hear in our mind which CANNOT BE GRASPED, are real, and the air we CANNOT SEE, but feel, are indeed real, how then can you stop there and say GIVE ME PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS BECAUSE HE CAN'T BE SEEN AND THEREFORE IS NOT REAL.
do you need to see Him, or hear Him or feel Him in order to believe?

Because I have evidence for all those other things, and only your word for God. Our claim isn't that God isn't real because he's invisible, Our claim is that belief in God is unjustified because the only evidence for God is hearsay, and that kind of evidence is what's provided for all the other gods (and demons), too.

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I do not lie. Everything I have said to you is truth. I'm truly sorry if I have disrespected anyone, that was not my intent. I was responding to the post that is titled "Christians are delusional". I was wanting to give you a different perspective, another point of view that maybe you have not heard before.

I appreciate the effort, but I've heard that, or close variations of that, all before. I'm pretty sure everybody here has. These are kind of 'go-to' arguments for believers, and funnily enough, atheists are people who get to hear them the most.

I do not come with an argument, I only come to give peace.

That's a change of pace. We seem to get people who don't make an argument and then think they did, you did make an argument and claim you didn't.

I was trying to show only this; if you can agree that both visible things and invisible things are real and equal in balance, then perhaps you could find belief and faith in those things which are unseen.

One invisible thing being real doesn't make any other invisible thing real. And the invisible things you cited that we accept the existence of are all detectable and at least indirectly demonstrable.

My God and your God can be felt. My God and your God can be heard and seen.

If you already believe. You know what can only be felt, heard, and seen by people who believe in it first? A delusion.

He is best explained here, in the Nag Hammadi library.
I wish you all peace.

Before explanations are helpful, you have to show there is something that needs to be explained. I wish you peace, as well.

[Chad32]

Then we can start talking about how good a person he really is, and if I really want to have a relationship with him.

You'd consider civil discussion with a genocidal maniac? Wow, you've got balls.

Honestly I'd crap my pants if the character of the bible were proven to exist, and would only bow to it from fear or force. I can't imagine doing it out of love.

[Mister Agenda]

Then we can start talking about how good a person he really is, and if I really want to have a relationship with him.

You'd consider civil discussion with a genocidal maniac? Wow, you've got balls.

Perhaps he/she/it, if real, has been misrepresented by those who claim to speak for he/she/it, and there's a perfectly good explanation for all this.

[Chad32]

That's pretty the purpose of the talk I would want to have. Though people will tell me that when I get to heaven, there won't be much talking. Just "you didn't worship me while you were alive. Bye now", and I'm gone.