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RE: The church to end all churches
May 22, 2014 at 12:03 pm
(May 21, 2014 at 11:09 pm)Luckie Wrote: It seems to me, that finding good in organized Christianity is nearly impossible. Based upon this observation and your assertion in another thread that 'we will be known by our fruits', I find it difficult to imagine that you're not diluded.
I think you're way off on this. I could point countless examples of the good that organized religions have done for the world. In my home town the Christian Assistance Network, which is made up of people of most of the christian churches in the area, provides food and clothing to those in need. The Salvation Army is actually a christian denomination and holds services in their church building here. Many denominations help support Craftsman for Christ, which builds homes for the needy. Adults and teenagers from my church and others go to Mexico each year and build homes for the needy there. The fruit of organized christianity is evident all over the world.
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 23, 2014 at 3:59 am
Yes. And then there are YECs and all the people like them that distrust scientific facts because they are against the bible. Which is obviously good for our society...
Religious charity associations DO good things to help those in need, but those good things are blatantly outweighed by the bad things caused by religion (fundamentalism, corruption, control over people's minds) in most of the world.
Heck, one could even argue that the Catholic Church is good because it supports many anti-mafia initiatives here in Italy. But then again anyone can see the scandals of the Vatican Bank. AND the kiddie-fiddling priests.
It's just people who are good or bad, and organized religion, like any other organization, makes them express their own personality and amplifies it, both good or bad. And I've seen too many bad people using religion as an excuse to go on with their bad actions.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 23, 2014 at 11:15 pm
(May 23, 2014 at 3:59 am)oukoida Wrote: Yes. And then there are YECs and all the people like them that distrust scientific facts because they are against the bible. Which is obviously good for our society...
Religious charity associations DO good things to help those in need, but those good things are blatantly outweighed by the bad things caused by religion (fundamentalism, corruption, control over people's minds) in most of the world.
Heck, one could even argue that the Catholic Church is good because it supports many anti-mafia initiatives here in Italy. But then again anyone can see the scandals of the Vatican Bank. AND the kiddie-fiddling priests.
It's just people who are good or bad, and organized religion, like any other organization, makes them express their own personality and amplifies it, both good or bad. And I've seen too many bad people using religion as an excuse to go on with their bad actions.
Do you have a problem with all christians or just organized christian churches?
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 24, 2014 at 2:25 am
(May 23, 2014 at 11:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you have a problem with all christians or just organized christian churches?
Actually, I have a problem with all organized religions. I talked about christianity just because it is the example I know best and because that's what you were talking about.
If you say "the fruit of organized christianity is evident all over the world" of course people are going to reply with something about christianity.
I am ok with every kind of religion as long as it does not harm anyone (as I wrote before, the most important Italian anti-mafia association is led by a Catholic priest who is a great person), but inevitably every organized religion will know corruption and dishonesty, since organized religion implies power and authority which in turn imply a competition for their control.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 24, 2014 at 2:30 am
(May 23, 2014 at 11:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you have a problem with all christians or just organized christian churches?
Both.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 24, 2014 at 2:15 pm
(May 24, 2014 at 2:25 am)oukoida Wrote: (May 23, 2014 at 11:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you have a problem with all christians or just organized christian churches?
Actually, I have a problem with all organized religions. I talked about christianity just because it is the example I know best and because that's what you were talking about.
If you say "the fruit of organized christianity is evident all over the world" of course people are going to reply with something about christianity.
I am ok with every kind of religion as long as it does not harm anyone (as I wrote before, the most important Italian anti-mafia association is led by a Catholic priest who is a great person), but inevitably every organized religion will know corruption and dishonesty, since organized religion implies power and authority which in turn imply a competition for their control.
Name an institution with power and authority that does all good without corruption or misdeeds, for example civil governments, schools, hospitals, etc. Would the world be better off without them?
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 24, 2014 at 2:35 pm
Probably.
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 24, 2014 at 4:38 pm
Governments (seen as social structures, not political figures) hospitals and schools are not founded on irrational claims and are functional to our society's existence and well being.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 25, 2014 at 1:13 am
(May 24, 2014 at 4:38 pm)oukoida Wrote: Governments (seen as social structures, not political figures) hospitals and schools are not founded on irrational claims and are functional to our society's existence and well being.
So is religion, which has probably been around just as long.
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RE: The church to end all churches
May 25, 2014 at 3:30 am
(May 25, 2014 at 1:13 am)Lek Wrote: (May 24, 2014 at 4:38 pm)oukoida Wrote: Governments (seen as social structures, not political figures) hospitals and schools are not founded on irrational claims and are functional to our society's existence and well being.
So is religion, which has probably been around just as long.
You've basically just said that religion is founded on rational premises
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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