Posts: 69248
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
259
Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 19, 2014 at 9:41 pm
So much for the idea that the Romans abandoned all interest in Germania after the Teutobergerwald fiasco.
http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2...rn-germany
Quote:“Now we have the first camp that’s clearly more than a day trip from the edge of the empire,” he says. “It’s no isolated frontier outpost, but something that clearly points to the Elbe River,” hundreds of kilometers deep in German territory.
Posts: 3837
Threads: 197
Joined: August 28, 2013
Reputation:
38
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 19, 2014 at 10:14 pm
Well that was no minor excursion either.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Posts: 69248
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
259
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 2:30 am
A couple of years ago there was evidence of a smaller scale Roman action in Germany, east of the Rhein. Probably cohort strength with some auxillia sent along with some ballista it dated to the 3d century (coins found on the field) and probably represented a Roman helping hand to one tribal chieftain against another. The local governors doubtless had the inclination to get the Germanic tribes fighting among themselves and didn't mind putting their thumbs on the scale when it served their purpose.
But this find is a full legionary camp. Whoever it was, they weren't fucking around.
Posts: 3837
Threads: 197
Joined: August 28, 2013
Reputation:
38
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 3:31 am
(May 20, 2014 at 2:30 am)Minimalist Wrote: A couple of years ago there was evidence of a smaller scale Roman action in Germany, east of the Rhein. Probably cohort strength with some auxillia sent along with some ballista it dated to the 3d century (coins found on the field) and probably represented a Roman helping hand to one tribal chieftain against another. The local governors doubtless had the inclination to get the Germanic tribes fighting among themselves and didn't mind putting their thumbs on the scale when it served their purpose.
But this find is a full legionary camp. Whoever it was, they weren't fucking around. Given that its its before the 3rd century they were probably dealing with a series of small raids on the border. So they decided to make a example of what happens when you fuck with Rome.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Posts: 43955
Threads: 528
Joined: July 24, 2013
Reputation:
109
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 5:10 am
(May 19, 2014 at 9:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: So much for the idea that the Romans abandoned all interest in Germania after the Teutobergerwald fiasco.
http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2...rn-germany
Quote:“Now we have the first camp that’s clearly more than a day trip from the edge of the empire,” he says. “It’s no isolated frontier outpost, but something that clearly points to the Elbe River,” hundreds of kilometers deep in German territory.
I don't think it perfectly correct to say that Rome abandoned all interest in Germania after the Varus disaster. Whenever interest in the region began to flag, some gaggle of unwashed barbarians (the Goths, the Chatti, the Almani...whomever) would stage a raid and Roman interest would flare up for a campaign season.
I've always felt the Western Empire might have held together longer if Augustus' successors had listened to him. Oh, well.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 19788
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 9:59 am
(This post was last modified: May 20, 2014 at 10:03 am by Anomalocaris.)
I thought the Roman army under Germanicus mounted several large scale invasions into Germany on successive years just a few years of teutoberg disaster, and succeeded amongst other things in capturing Herman's wife.
I thought it was always known the Romans had invaded Germany in legion strength after teutoberg defeat.
Posts: 3837
Threads: 197
Joined: August 28, 2013
Reputation:
38
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 11:39 am
(May 20, 2014 at 9:59 am)Chuck Wrote: I thought the Roman army under Germanicus mounted several large scale invasions into Germany on successive years just a few years of teutoberg disaster, and succeeded amongst other things in capturing Herman's wife.
I thought it was always known the Romans had invaded Germany in legion strength after teutoberg defeat. Sort of. Most of it came from roman descriptive sources, which often in others cases have stretched the truth. Furthermore sometimes they are straight full of shit and make up bad guys.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Posts: 69248
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
259
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 12:24 pm
Germanicus did mount several expeditions to punish the German tribes which had ambushed Varus but apparently recovered the standards which were lost. But Augustus' who was still in command seems to have lost all interest in pushing on towards the Elbe. Roman writers tend to describe Germany as a dreary place. Supposedly in his Last Will and Testament Augustus enjoined his successors from advancing beyond the Rhine. It was probably all the hint that they needed but the idea that they did nothing except stand behind on their defenses on the river must be tossed. Like we do today, they encouraged division among their enemies and apparently lent a hand when needed.
Posts: 19788
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 1:53 pm
(This post was last modified: May 20, 2014 at 2:34 pm by Anomalocaris.)
I suspect it wasn't the will of Augustus that stayed the hand of the successive emperors. Rather it was the appreciation that Germany lacked the basic social and economic infrastructure, and as a result wouldn't repay imperial treasury for the cost of any conquest for many decades, if ever.
(May 20, 2014 at 11:39 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Sort of. Most of it came from roman descriptive sources, which often in others cases have stretched the truth. Furthermore sometimes they are straight full of shit and make up bad guys.
Divide by ten any roman claims of enemy body count, and the numbers would usually still be respectable for major compaigns.
Posts: 69248
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
259
RE: Roman Camp Found Near the Elbe
May 20, 2014 at 3:51 pm
Quote: Rather it was the appreciation that Germany lacked the basic social and economic infrastructure
Neither did Gaul but that did not stop them. The Romans, including Tiberius himself in tactical command, campaigned extensively between the Elbe and the Rhine prior to Teutobergerwald. Tiberius probably could be excused for drawing a negative conclusion about the region. For a soldier it probably did not seem worthwhile to push the border forward to another river line when they already had a perfectly serviceable river line in the Rhine. As you say, it would have required a lot of infrastructure development and it should have been obvious to all by that time that the wealth they wanted was in the East, not the dismal north.
All ancient stats are suspect. Some are flat out fucking ridiculous as when the OT claims that 'god' killed 70,000 people to punish David for fucking up a census. The entire population of Judah at the time would have been something under 20,000.
|
