Faith is a measure of irrationality

[BlackMason]

Faith itself is not a measure of irrationality. Faith is an often useful heuristic tool to avoid psychological paralysis in the face of inadequate information or evidence about the relative merits of an array of alternative paths that can be taken.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you. I believe you are confusing faith with inductive reasoning. Heuristics rely on logically sound foundations. This is not the case with faith. A heuristic is a pattern that has been observed enough times to merit it's reliability. Does faith have any reliability? Does faith have a logical foundation?

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When does faith become stupid?

When it is improperly defined.

In Hebrews 11:1, Paul defines faith as the "assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen." The example of the person grabbing an umbrella when he sees indications that it might rain applies here, though I would substitute "expected" in place of "hoped for." If you have a friend who is very reliable, you will come to have faith in him when he agrees to something. If he says he'll pick you up tomorrow at 10am, you have faith that he'll be there.

I also disagree with you. Is it not true that you have observed that your friend is reliable in the past? I believe that it is so. Therefore, it is not faith that you are exercising when dealing with your friend, it is reason. Believing that your friend will come at 10 is reasonable because of the manner he/she has conducted him/herself. This is something "tangible" that you are basing your decision on. Does one have anything as "tangible" when dealing with faith?

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Is that not the basis of faith?

[Foxaèr]

Most theists are quite fond of confusing religious faith with secular faith.

I most certainly have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, because we have verifiable proof that the sun does indeed rise around the same time each day.

I most certainly do not have any sort of faith that it is by the hand of god that the sun is allowed to rise each day, because there is no verifiable proof of stated god's existence nor any evidence that the deity has any part in ensuring that the sun does daily rise.

[Tonus]

I also disagree with you. Is it not true that you have observed that your friend is reliable in the past? I believe that it is so. Therefore, it is not faith that you are exercising when dealing with your friend, it is reason. Believing that your friend will come at 10 is reasonable because of the manner he/she has conducted him/herself. This is something "tangible" that you are basing your decision on. Does one have anything as "tangible" when dealing with faith?

As I said, Paul noted examples of people who had experienced god in some way before trusting his word. Their faith was based on the knowledge that god existed and therefore they trusted that he would be true to his word.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Is that not the basis of faith?

If we go by the Bible, we can assume that Thomas either directly witnessed --or got eyewitness accounts of-- Jesus resurrecting the dead, and heard Jesus predict his own resurrection. Jesus chided Thomas for not trusting that he would be true to his word.

[vodkafan]

Faith is doing a Risk Assessment then hoping for the best instead.

[BlackMason]

If we go by the Bible, we can assume that Thomas either directly witnessed --or got eyewitness accounts of-- Jesus resurrecting the dead, and heard Jesus predict his own resurrection. Jesus chided Thomas for not trusting that he would be true to his word.

True. However, I was approaching the issue at the definition level. The doubting Thomas example was to show biblical faith in action, well the direct opposite.

[Tonus]

I agree that the Bible muddles the definition, or at least leaves itself open to that interpretation. I suspect that the Christians who define faith as blind belief are doing so as a way to deal with the lack of evidence and the fact that god just refuses to show himself.

[Strongbad]

Favorite quote time!


Faith is being persuaded and fully committed in trust, involving a confident belief in the truth, value, and trustworthiness of God. When it comes to Christianity, 'faith' is defined by three separate but vitally connected aspects (especially from Luther and Melancthon onwards): notitia (informational content), assensus (intellectual assent), and fiducia (committed trust). So faith is the sum of having the information, being persuaded of its truthfulness, and trusting in it. To illustrate the three aspects: "Christ died for ours sins" (notitia); "I am persuaded that Christ died for our sins" (notitia + assensus); "I deeply commit in trust to Christ who I am persuaded died for our sins" (notitia + assensus + fiducia). Only the latter constitutes faith, on the Christian view.

Consequently, notitia and fiducia without assensus is blind and therefore not faith. This shipwrecks the egregious canard that faith is merely a blind leap. Faith goes beyond reason—i.e., into the arena of trust—but never against reason. From the Enlightenment onwards, faith has been subject to constant attempts at redefining it into the realm of the irrational or irrelevant (e.g., Kant's noumenal category); but all such attempts are built on irresponsible straw man caricatures that bear no resemblance to faith as held under the Christian view: notitia, assensus, and fiducia.

Got it, thanks Ryft!

So, when applied to a different bit of “information” given in the bible, Christian faith sounds like this:

Numbers 22:28 “Yahweh then gave the donkey the power to talk, and she said to Balaam “What harm have I done to you, for you to strike me three times like this?”

“I am persuaded that a donkey spoke” (informational content + intellectual assent)

“I am deeply committed to the belief that donkeys can speak” (informational content + intellectual assent + fiducia)

"Faith" truly is an amazing thing.

[Tonus]

That's an interesting point. One wonders if Eve spent the rest of her life trying to have conversations with snakes.

[fr0d0]

So, when applied to a different bit of “information” given in the bible, Christian faith sounds like this:

That's not a different piece of information, that's a tiny piece of the same information, taken out of context. Funny though

[IAmTheeWallrus]

The time has come to take the stand that faith is NOT a virtue.
It is a scourge.