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Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
#1
Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
Once again, Sam Harris opens his mouth on politics, and once again I'm left shaking my head. This time he wrote a lengthy blog in defense of the utter brutality that Israel has been exercising on her enemies the last few weeks. You can read it here: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-d...ize-israel I know he speaks for no one but himself but perception is everything, and he has in many people's minds earned a place as one the fiercest and most well-versed proponents for the modern age's shift towards atheism. He's revered by many atheists, including those here, and in multiple respects this is well-deserved; that's also why I fear he is doing a heck of a job misleading the impressionable and creating a caricature of atheists that many, such as myself, find despicable. I have quoted his work before in arguing certain positions, and I can only imagine how his continual display of ignorance on vastly complex topics will be all too easily thrown back in my face.

My two biggest problems with his article:
The defense that Israel could cause a lot more damage, but doesn't, hence her intentions must be noble.
Second, that Hamas is to blame for the devastation Israel has caused for the millions who live in Gaza, when in fact Israel has made those people suffer for decades; Hamas is a predictable reaction. "Give me liberty or give me death" is a human ideal, not an American one. So, I was going to place this in the "Politics" section but I also think it deserves a spot here, as atheism, as a movement, which it can be called in some respects ("New Atheism")--and/or as it is perceived by believers--will be damaged by neo-con crap like this.

Also, Steven Pinker retweeted his link (another American Imperialist). I look forward to Murtaza Hussain's response (which he has promised in the future--and which I will post here).

All that aside, I'm still looking forward to Harris' new book Waking Up, which is coming out this September.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#2
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
Never heard of the man. He has opinions though eh? Fancy that...lol.
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#3
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
(July 28, 2014 at 4:27 am)Rhythm Wrote: Never heard of the man. He has opinions though eh? Fancy that...lol.

Yeah, I understand that his opinions don't reflect on anyone else, per se. Again, I say "per se" because in the way that atheism is perceived, oftentimes under the umbrella of it's most successful proponents (Harris, Dawkins, Krauss, etc.; these guys sell a lot of books, so their opinions do matter to many), I think/hope someone should/will push back...and honestly, we shouldn't leave it to the religiously-inclined to make the rational case against Israel's war crimes and for a peaceful Palestine here.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#4
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
I have no problem with Harris' arguments.

I also think you mischaracterize the role of Hamas in Gaza. Hamas is not interested in the liberty and well being of the Palestinians there, they are interested in power. Israel has committed to relieving import restrictions, but rightly asks for the internationally supervised demilitarization of Gaza. I think many people forget why the border crossings are closed and a blockade was put into effect to begin with.

I also don't understand the reflexive demand in certain circles that Israel do nothing as Hamas continues to lob rockets into Israel. Hamas knew that Israeli retaliation would result in civilian casualties; they counted on them for political support. What does this say about Hamas' commitment to the Palestinian people?
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#5
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
(July 28, 2014 at 9:22 am)Cato Wrote: I have no problem with Harris' arguments.

I also think you mischaracterize the role of Hamas in Gaza. Hamas is not interested in the liberty and well being of the Palestinians there, they are interested in power. Israel has committed to relieving import restrictions, but rightly asks for the internationally supervised demilitarization of Gaza. I think many people forget why the border crossings are closed and a blockade was put into effect to begin with.

I also don't understand the reflexive demand in certain circles that Israel do nothing as Hamas continues to lob rockets into Israel. Hamas knew that Israeli retaliation would result in civilian casualties; they counted on them for political support. What does this say about Hamas' commitment to the Palestinian people?

Name one government that isn't interested in power; that Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people is of course a claim Israel's supporters like to make, though without any basis. The Palestinians elected them to govern so unless that was largely fraudulent, and I have seen no evidence or argument to suggest as much, it would seem that they must be doing something right.

The rest of your arguments are asinine. Israel has devastated the region through occupations, blockades, and military operations for 45 years. It's understandable why the oppressed might react and lash out at the oppressor. After all, the result of those policies I mentioned have created one of the poorest peoples in the world, and then every few years Israel goes and shits on them some more. Of course, blaming the victim is nothing new and is a common tactic of Israeli propagandists.

And no one suggested Israel should do nothing. They should seek to rectify the problems they have created through peaceful negotiations rather than exacerbate them by senselessly murdering thousands and demolishing entire neighborhoods.

Israel started this mess after the three Jewish teenagers were tragically murdered. Now they're exercising collective punishment and their apologists make me sick.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#6
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
I'm starting to wonder if you actually read Harris' transcript and clarifying notes. Harris isn't engaged in Zionist/Israeli apologetics. He goes out of his way to acknowledge Israel's responsibility in the ongoing conflict. What Harris does do, and what I agree with, is to remove this veneer of moral equivalency when discussing events in Gaza.

You mentioned negotiations. Who precisely is Israel supposed to negotiate with? The PNA or Hamas? Who is going to enforce Palestinian compliance with whatever is agreed to? Why is everyone so quick to forget the violent reaction of the Palestinians every time their supposed leaders came back with something even resembling a framework for a peaceful settlement?

The above is the Palestinian reason why a two state solution is untenable. The Israeli problem is that there's no way to back up the West Bank settlements. This leaves two options. The status quo or a one state solution. A one state solution has Egypt taking Gaza and Israel and Jordan negotiating a new border in the West Bank.
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#7
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
Quote: but rightly asks for the internationally supervised demilitarization of Gaza.


Judging by the respective body count the demilitarization of Israel might achieve more.
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#8
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
(July 28, 2014 at 5:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: but rightly asks for the internationally supervised demilitarization of Gaza.


Judging by the respective body count the demilitarization of Israel might achieve more.

Sound strategy if your goal is the extermination of Jews.
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#9
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
(July 28, 2014 at 5:00 pm)Cato Wrote: I'm starting to wonder if you actually read Harris' transcript and clarifying notes. Harris isn't engaged in Zionist/Israeli apologetics. He goes out of his way to acknowledge Israel's responsibility in the ongoing conflict. What Harris does do, and what I agree with, is to remove this veneer of moral equivalency when discussing events in Gaza.

You mentioned negotiations. Who precisely is Israel supposed to negotiate with? The PNA or Hamas? Who is going to enforce Palestinian compliance with whatever is agreed to? Why is everyone so quick to forget the violent reaction of the Palestinians every time their supposed leaders came back with something even resembling a framework for a peaceful settlement?

The above is the Palestinian reason why a two state solution is untenable. The Israeli problem is that there's no way to back up the West Bank settlements. This leaves two options. The status quo or a one state solution. A one state solution has Egypt taking Gaza and Israel and Jordan negotiating a new border in the West Bank.
I did read the transcript, Cato, and I outlined two arguments he specifically made, at least as I perceived them, that I find particularly egregious and stupid. The fact that he says he doesn't support a Jewish state is irrelevant to his aim to "remove the veneer of moral equivalency," which he does do, just in the completely wrong direction. There is no equivalency between the actions Hamas has taken (which I do not condone or support) to the genocide Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians, on top of their already atrocious policies that have sucked the lifeblood out of Gaza. You seem to be unaware of the specific obligations Israel has to the Palestinians under international law as occupiers, so I'll lay them bare as borrowed from this insightful Nation article: "As the occupying power of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories more broadly, Israel has an obligation and a duty to protect the civilians under its occupation. It governs by military and law enforcement authority to maintain order, protect itself and protect the civilian population under its occupation. It cannot simultaneously occupy the territory, thus usurping the self-governing powers that would otherwise belong to Palestinians, and declare war upon them. These contradictory policies (occupying a land and then declaring war on it) make the Palestinian population doubly vulnerable...Israel denies Palestinians the right to govern and protect themselves, while simultaneously invoking the right to self-defense. This is a conundrum and a violation of international law, one that Israel deliberately created to evade accountability." As Amnesty International writes: [Image: BtZRnS8CYAArF51.png]

Clearly Israel has no regard for Palestinian life as evidenced by their indiscriminate attacks on civilians; 1000+ dead, 6000+ injured, and counting. What makes them any better than the "terrorists?"

And demilitarization of Gaza? What makes you think the Palestinians have an obligation to any agreement under which Israel (a nuclear power, mind you) would retain complete control to violate their sovereignty?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#10
RE: Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?
See it simply:

By the Geneva conventions, using infrastructure for military use makes it a legitimate target.

1. Hamas uses schools, residential neighbourhoods and hospitals for military targets, thus endangering civilians inside.

2. Every ceasefire (which means you stop firing at the enemy -- only that) has been met with Hamas using it to position more Qassam rockets.

3. Hamas has no military bargaining power.

If they do not surrender, then they are solely responsible for the death of Gazans.

Frankly, I never liked the Israelis, but Hamas continually picks a fight with a stronger bully and then hides behind/sets up civilians for the slaughter.

To hell with Gaza -- pound them until they unconditionally surrender or kill them all.

There is no middle ground any more -- it has gone on too long.

The only thing that dumb shit liberals seem to see is that there aren't droves of dead Israelis -- they're alive due to Iron Dome.

Without Iron Dome, we wouldn't see this misplaced bleeding heart bullshit that only enriches Hamas leadership and further allows them to devote money towards weapons, not food.
Slave to the Patriarchy no more
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