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Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
#1
Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
I'm interested in your opinion about a Catholic position that filters out stuff the Church claims followers shall stand for. In Poland there is the church law that stretches over the regular Roman Catholic doctrine and I just want to bring forth an example.

It says: You can't live in the same house with a partner (both never married before), unless you are indeed married. Or, rather, it says you can't have sex, but they don't say sex out loud.

Let's say there is a member of that church that does not share this particular belief / consciously does not follow this rule. Is it more likely for this person to just not follow the rule, thinking he is still entitled to be a part of the community?

Or rather one should switch to a more generic Roman Catholic church? Or even to "bare" Christianity? For consequence sake?

And as a follow up - what is the reasoning behind ability to make an exception and not realizing that's a normative claim from outside of religion? Like, "if I know how to filter the Old Testament's bad ethical rules, I cannot be certain of the rest of them, and/or it is I who know something about Ethics, not the Old Testament". What stops people of faith from realizing this? How do they explain this to themselves?
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#2
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
(July 30, 2014 at 7:24 pm)lwlodarczyk Wrote: I'm interested in your opinion about a Catholic position that filters out stuff the Church claims followers shall stand for. In Poland there is the church law that stretches over the regular Roman Catholic doctrine and I just want to bring forth an example.

It says: You can't live in the same house with a partner (both never married before), unless you are indeed married. Or, rather, it says you can't have sex, but they don't say sex out loud.

Let's say there is a member of that church that does not share this particular belief / consciously does not follow this rule. Is it more likely for this person to just not follow the rule, thinking he is still entitled to be a part of the community?

Or rather one should switch to a more generic Roman Catholic church? Or even to "bare" Christianity? For consequence sake?

And as a follow up - what is the reasoning behind ability to make an exception and not realizing that's a normative claim from outside of religion? Like, "if I know how to filter the Old Testament's bad ethical rules, I cannot be certain of the rest of them, and/or it is I who know something about Ethics, not the Old Testament". What stops people of faith from realizing this? How do they explain this to themselves?
The Pope is in charge of the Roman Catholic church. His rules are the law EVERYWHERE - the U.S., Poland, Spain, Central America - Everywhere.
Whether individual Catholics follow those laws or not, is up to them to decide.
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#3
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
(July 30, 2014 at 7:33 pm)John S Wrote: Whether individual Catholics follow those laws or not, is up to them to decide.

Aha! Is this a conscious choice? And if so, can you reply to the follow up question?
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#4
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
Catholics don't all follow all the laws. Many of them break it anyway, then either go to confession or do some act of penance.
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#5
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
Kind of sounds like if you don't like liver, don't eat it. Seems ok. In fact, expecting a group of people to be perfect is insane. Believing a large group of people will be perfect is the same as believing jesus rose from the dead to me.
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#6
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
There are large (VERY large) variations in Catholic marriage annulments from country to country. IIRC, there are many times more in the US than in some other countries, and also, whether or not an annulment is even possible if children are involved varies as you go.

It's my impression the church does NOT advertise these regional disparities. Presumably the intensity of fealty to God's edicts, strictures, covenants, rules, commandments, and decrees is supposed to be the same everywhere, and calling attention to the discrepancies is frowned upon.


addenda: I should have said annulment rate, sorry,
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#7
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
(July 30, 2014 at 7:36 pm)lwlodarczyk Wrote:
(July 30, 2014 at 7:33 pm)John S Wrote: Whether individual Catholics follow those laws or not, is up to them to decide.

Aha! Is this a conscious choice? And if so, can you reply to the follow up question?

I live in a Catholic country. And well…we(should I say we? or they? since I am an atheist) pretty much do all kinds of s**t that I can assure you are forbidden by the church and when we get out on the streets we pretend we didn't do anything wrong.
[Image: happy-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
We tell that to our friends, our family and ourselves, yet when we get back home we start doing them once again.
[Image: whip-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
Then people go to confession tell half of the truth(the good half if you know what I mean) and when we pay penitence they say into their hearts that this is for all the bad that they told the priest along with the stuff they didn't told him.
[Image: angel1-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
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#8
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
(July 30, 2014 at 10:06 pm)Zidneya Wrote:
(July 30, 2014 at 7:36 pm)lwlodarczyk Wrote: Aha! Is this a conscious choice? And if so, can you reply to the follow up question?

I live in a Catholic country. And well…we(should I say we? or they? since I am an atheist) pretty much do all kinds of s**t that I can assure you are forbidden by the church and when we get out on the streets we pretend we didn't do anything wrong.
[Image: happy-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
We tell that to our friends, our family and ourselves, yet when we get back home we start doing them once again.
[Image: whip-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
Then people go to confession tell half of the truth(the good half if you know what I mean) and when we pay penitence they say into their hearts that this is for all the bad that they told the priest along with the stuff they didn't told him.
[Image: angel1-onion-head-emoticon.gif]

I live in catholic country. I have never heard one say "we are perfect people" or I have never heard them say "we don't have evil people in our group". To say that they claim perfection is bullshit.

Now mind you, I do not hang around assholes. I like being the only one. Makes me feel special ed like.

(July 30, 2014 at 9:56 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: There are large (VERY large) variations in Catholic marriage annulments from country to country. IIRC, there are many times more in the US than in some other countries, and also, whether or not an annulment is even possible if children are involved varies as you go.

It's my impression the church does NOT advertise these regional disparities. Presumably the intensity of fealty to God's edicts, strictures, covenants, rules, commandments, and decrees is supposed to be the same everywhere, and calling attention to the discrepancies is frowned upon.


addenda: I should have said annulment rate, sorry,


yeah, leaders don't tell the truth ... you mean thats a new thing? Had I known, I wouldn't have slander-ed them so many years ago. Confused Fall
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#9
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
Forgive me father, for I have sinned.


I saw a crippled beggar on the sidewalk the other day, and I gave him $50, a bible, better clothes, and a referral to my physician, but I did not wash his feet.

I feel so AWFUL!!!
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#10
RE: Is the Catholic position a "take it or leave it" kind?
Okay I don’t know what is your issue pal but first read before you reply.
(July 31, 2014 at 11:13 am)archangle Wrote: I live in catholic country. I have never heard one say "we are perfect people"
Well guess what me neither.
(July 31, 2014 at 11:13 am)archangle Wrote: or I have never heard them say "we don't have evil people in our group".
Again neither do I.
(July 31, 2014 at 11:13 am)archangle Wrote: To say that they claim perfection is bullshit.
Do me a favor, and while you do that do yourself a favor. Press Ctrl+F, (or if you have a Mac is ⌘-F) and type “perfection” I want to see in which sentence is that I claimed such thing.

Because I claimed that Catholics lied to themselves and others about being good people, not perfect just good. One can consider himself good but that doesn’t mean he is perfect nor that he thinks that of himself.

And last time I checked one can go to church lie to the Padre about your actions tell yourself you are a good catholic and still whine and complain about the rest of the world on the way back home. What you’ve never heard anyone claim he is a good person and everyone else is wrong?
I had the impression that during confession you respond by your own individual actions not the ones of the group you are part of.

You see that’s what I said, not that we are perfect, nor that our culture is flawless what I said (and I am gonna repeat again hoping this time you get it right) Is that Catholics don’t act according to the commandments of their church but most of them when they step up during confession they lie about it telling themselves they(and when I mean they I refer to the person that is confessing) are good people not perfect just good.
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